white phosphorous

[Goffredo]

Hi guys
PREMISE: I wish to have some information and NOT START A HEATED DEBATE with politcal overtones.

I would like to know if anyone knows something about white phosphorous.
I know it is used to intensely illuminate night fights and it is also used to get entrenched enemy to come out of their holes ("bake and shake").

Is it true that it kills everything within a radius of several tens of meters(hundred meters!)? If yes in what way? Its is true that a body is consumed down to the bones? Is it true that clothing is left intact?

If anyone on the forum has true knowledge and not just hearsay please write, at least a private message

Jeff

[Tarbicus]

Toxic properties
[url:23ohp5nt]http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts103.html[/url]

Grenade
[url:23ohp5nt]http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m15.htm[/url]

Comprehensive roundup of its uses
[url:23ohp5nt]http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/wp.htm[/url]

It's used for smokescreens and you will even find it in your toothpaste.

[Goffredo]

Hi Jim
I found links too and basically I read the very same things.

I wonder if anyone on this forum has direct experience; i.e. is in the army and actually knows because he has actually seen the real effects of this stuff in a realistic situation.

Is is really possible that an intense cloud of this stuff could really kill everything within a radius of 100 meters and disolve (burn) down to the bones? This is what is being said here in Italy! Of course I am skeptical of these news especially because it is being quoted by those that are not objective but by those that have an objective (political agenda)! But the average bloke is impressionable and can be led to believe things if the story is told "well" enough.

What I read in your links and similar ones does not convincingly show that white phosphorous can be used for the purpose of killing and disolving indiscriminately everything within some effective range.

[Marius_Ursus]

Hi Jim
I found links too and basically I read the very same things.

I wonder if anyone on this forum has direct experience; i.e. is in the army and actually knows because he has actually seen the real effects of this stuff in a realistic situation.

Is is really possible that an intense cloud of this stuff could really kill everything within a radius of 100 meters and disolve (burn) down to the bones? This is what is being said here in Italy! Of course I am skeptical of these news especially because it is being quoted by those that are not objective but by those that have an objective (political agenda)! But the average bloke is impressionable and can be led to believe things if the story is told "well" enough.

What I read in your links and similar ones does not convincingly show that white phosphorous can be used for the purpose of killing and disolving indiscriminately everything within some effective range.

Any soldier or veteran of the US Army should be able to answer this. At least, if you served when I did, you should because we recieved pretty good training in it.

It doesn't kill everything within any given area. It disperses thousands of burning phosphorous molecules that can embed themselves in skin and burn through, on rare occasion, to the bone. It's dangerous, and from what I understand, very, very painful, but it's not as leathal as an HE round with fragmentation added.

It is, however, inhumane to use on the enemy because of the insane amount of agony it puts a person through.

[Tarbicus]

Gofredo, I'll send you a PM with a link that is definitely political, so I don't think it belongs here. But it does quote military studies of the material with actual source references, in response to the news stories.

[Goffredo]

Thanks mate! Appreciate your comments and your help.
Ciao for now

Jeff

[hoplite14gr]

"Willie Pete" as the veterans call him is nasty staff. It burns clothes and skin even if you jump into the water! Except in grenades is used as a mortar rounds for laying smoke screens that make difficult the life of infrared sight users. NATO tanks use smoke WP granade launchers for the same reason because A/T missles have infrared sights.
"Bazooka" crews (yes the damn thing is still in use!) are issued with up to 2 WP rounds.
You can attempt to create panic to the enemy by throwing WP among their trenches to force them abandon fortifications but old-"Willie Pete" is unpredictable because the air can send it back to you.
My sargent used to say that it is "illegal" to target people but I say "everything is allowed in love and war".
Hope I add my two pennies worth on the subject.
Kind regards
Stefanos

[Caius Fabius]

I used it, I loved it.
We also had "red Phosphorous" vehicle launched grenades.
They obscure, white or red smoke, they burn. The burn when there is oxygen in the air or water, so water will not put it out, but you can
keep it from igniting with oil or kerosene, (or CO2). Once it is burning,
oil or kerosene just flashes into ignition, so don't try to put out a fire with gasoline!!!

I have scars from red phosphorous. We used it, the wind changed, it burned through a field jacket, a woolen sweater, nomex tankers suit, and some of my skin. (Lucky I had eye goggles, crew helmet, face masks, woolen scarf, and gas mask on, and I ducked!). A standby Carbon dioxide fire extinguisher put me out until we could get all of the clothing off, which was mostly destroyed. I had to go to hospital, skin graft, minor stuff, but not fun. That being said, if someone was shooting at me, and I didn't want to be dead, I'd shoot them with it. If I missed, they'd still be distracted! I always targetedthe enemy equipment, if the soldiers wanted to stay and receive 50 cal or WP, that was their business. I think most targets didn't have a CO2 extinguisher nearby.

Charles (ex-tanker) (among other things)

[hoplite14gr]

Charles you are a man after my own heart!
"Red Pete" Eh!? Makes nice poetic colour-especially if one is not on the receiving end! I had an experience similar to yours but with WP.
But the real menace were butchers posing as Army doctors!
Glad you agree with me that "in love and war" everything is allowed.
If you ever pass from Europe lets have some drinks while developing the philosofic aspect of WP/RP usage!
Kind regards take care
Stefanos (ex-armor recon trooper) (among other things)

[john m roberts]

I think, regarding the news stories, that as usual when a controversial weapon is used, there is a lot of hysteria in the press. In Vietnam when common tear gas was used to clear tunnels, there was huge protest. It had nothing to do with the lethality of the gas (nonexistant) but the fact that the word "chemical" had become a dirty word. As for killing x number of people in an x-sized radius, any weapon will do that if you use enough of it. Ordinary gunpowder will. I think much of the revulsion is caused by the fact that everyone knows how it feels to get burned. Few people have been shot so there's not that much protest over bullets.
Fun WP fact: Do you know how they operate on a WP victim? They turn the lights out in the operating room. The victim lights up like a Christmas tree and they pick out the glowing particles with tweeers.

[hoplite14gr]

I think your post hit "Bullseye" John. As another example:
Some people consider acceptable concrete fortifications clearance with smoke grenades some don't. Or choose where their sympathies lie.
Its ok when the Allies smoked out the Germans in WWII but atrocity when the other side did to the Belgians and the Greeks or the russians for that reason.
There is only one cure - do not do war! But one can cound that human stupidity will reighn supreme even in our "civilized" era!
Kind regards
Stefanos

[Tarbicus]

My sargent used to say that it is "illegal" to target people....

I think your sergeant's point is why the press have been able to make it such a big story?

[andym]

I still think Greek Fire was a more superior weapon. hock:

[Tiberio]

Oh I would say greek fire is pretty much the same in results as Napalm.
Had to do with both as I am a former amunition mech. both burn very intensely both are hard to extinguish and both create in a very short time an emense amount of heat! Although our Hauptman told us that napalm was banned as of the Genieva convention they just gave it another name, as a so called "fuel-bomb" but jelled kerosine and phosphor detoniters sounds pretty much like napalm. Nasty stuff hope it is never used again!
Martin
P.S. I know of Greek fire because we managed to get the right recipe and we used it for fire arrows during a 15th century event, we didn´t use Greek fire in the military :wink:

[hoplite14gr]

Jim, I am afraid that my sargent had to say, what they ordered him to say.
Andy , Martin thanks for bringing up the "Greek Fire" subject
I am currently reseraching with a friend about the so called "Theion Lefcados". It is recorded by Filon Vyzantios. It is possible that Kallinikos resureccted the "Greek fire", not invented it. Ancient sources say that you can extinguish it only with vinegar. If I can prove my point that might explain Alexandrers "fire weapons" in Tyre and possibly the way that Romans reduced Celtic hillforts.
And thanks Godfredo for bringingit up.
Kind regards
Stefanos