Siege engine

[Jona Lendering]

Here's a rather odd anecdote from the Life of Apollonius §7.2 by Philostratus, a vie romancée from the third century AD.

Phyton, when he was banished from Rhegium, fled to Dionysius the tyrant of Sicily; but being treated with more honor than an exile might expect, he realized that the tyrant had designs also upon Rhegium; and he informed the people there of this by letter. But he was caught doing so by the tyrant, who forthwith fastened him to one of his siege engines alive, and then pushed it forward against the walls, imagining that the inhabitants of Rhegium would not shoot at the machine (mêchanêma) in order to spare Phyton. He, however, cried out to them to shoot, for, said he: "I am the target of your liberty."

Does anyone know what kind of siege engine can be meant? Dionysus is often associated with the development of siege engines; and he did besiege Rhegium in 387 BCE; but that seems to be a bit too soon for real, moving machines that could be "pushed forward against the walls". To the best of my knowledge, by then, fire-throwers were the only movable machines; but it's pretty useless to shoot arrows at a fire-thrower. The first siege towers were, I believe, developed later.

Am I wrong? Or is Philostratus, as I suspect, guilty of an anachronism?

[Philhellene]

In russian translation (of Rabinovich) this "siege engine" was just "battering-ram".

[Jona Lendering]

Although this would make sense, I think something more complex than a battering ram is meant. Mêchanêma implies that there is something that can be pulled up; cf. the mêchanê that was used in a theater ("deus ex machina").

[Philhellene]

Do you have the greek text of Philostratus? I`m interesting if Rabinovich` translation is wrong.

[Robert Vermaat]

Maybe the ram was pulled to a certain hight before it was released? I recall that battering rams are mostly swinging logs?
I'm not an expert, so anyone shoot me down if I'm wrong.. :?

[Philhellene]

I this case I think we should ask Suda. That`s what I found there:

Embolê: The extremity of the mechanical device [called] the ram. (alpha,3340)

It`s not exactly "mêchanêma", but I think there is no difference between mechanical device and machine.

[hoplite14gr]

Michanima in Greek means MACHNE or Mechanical device or conception of an idea. I speculate that if the siege engine if not a siege tower then in could be a CHELONI=tortoise-a battering-ram in a wooden cabin with wheels and covered by animal skind to thawrs incenaniearies.
I have the Filostratos "Love-letters" in the original but I guess you were not refering to that. Keep in mid that there were 2 Filostratoi. Whom do you mean?
Kind regards
Stefanos

[Carlton Bach]

My Greek is not up to snuff, bnuit Dionysius ise credited with a number of innovations in siege technology, including the combined ram/siege tower designs that Hellenistic engineers later took to such extremes as the helepolis. Could this be the reason why it is called by a name denoting not one spoecific siege engine but a 'machine'? Later descriptions show clearly that these were at their mnost vulnerable when being moved up to the wall, and often required elabotate machinery for the purpose. Dionysius' one may already have included artillery, too.

edit: I very much doubt a fire-thrower of any kind (really only good for attacking flammable buildings, which Carthaginian and Sikeliote fortresses were generally not very), but ram/tower designs were known earlier than this, in the 7th century BC if we can trust the reliefs from Ninveh and Nimrud. Details are sketchy, of course, but the basic design is pretty clear.

[Philhellene]

Keep in mid that there were 2 Filostratoi. Whom do you mean?

According to the "Dictionary of antique writers" ( http://www.ancientrome.ru/dictio/daw/index.htm ) there were 3 or 4 Filostratoi. Suda says there were 3. Your "Letters" are the work of author of "Lives of sophists" and "Live of Appolonios", so-called "second" Philostratus. Not all of the "Letters" are authentic.

Could this be the reason why it is called by a name denoting not one spoecific siege engine but a 'machine'?

We don`t know who`s right: Rabinovich (he names the type of machine) or your English translator.

[Anonymous]

It strikes me that there was a greater variety of siege engines about by 387 BC than you've been led to believe, Jona, and therefore he could have been tied to the front of a tower.

As to battering rams, there was a film noir about a prison breakout, in which a "stool pigeon" was tied to the front of a battering ram, prior to it smashing into the gates of the jail. Perhaps they'd got their idea from Dionysius?

[Jona Lendering]

Thanks! So many responses, it is hard to answer them all. As I now see it, the type of machine is either a (ditch-filling) tortoise or a moving tower; it makes sense to shoot arrows at them, even if they are covered with pillows of animal skins. For my purpose (helping a scholar who is writing a commentary on the Vita Apollonii), it is sufficient to know that the anecdote can not be rejected as unhistorical because movable machines did not exist. It may still be unhistorical, but not on this ground.

Still, I would like to see some evidence that they actually existed in the first quarter of the fourth century. What is a good book that contains sources for the beginning of poliorcetics?

As far as the Philostrati are concerned, I've discussed it here: [url:2mqrzqd9]http://www.livius.org/phi-php/philostratus/philostratus.htm[/url]

The main modern treatment is by Ludo de Lannoy, 'Le problème des Philostrate (État de la question)' in Aufstieg und Niedergang der Römischen Welt 2.34.3 (1997) 2362-2449.

[Philhellene]

We don`t know who`s right: Rabinovich (he names the type of machine) or your English translator.

It so fell out that your translator is right (I found the greek text). I`m wondering: why Rabinovich decided that this machine is a battering ram and translated this excerpt so incorrectly?

[Jona Lendering]

Philostratus' Greek is a bit strange, I have been told, and he is sometimes really careless in his word use, so that translators are forced to render the text in an interpretive way. Which implies certain risks. I am not a classicist, but now that I am putting on-line the text ([url:1vlkfr6m]http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/apollonius/life/va_00.html[/url]), even I have spotted at least two errors in the translation by Conybeare, and I infer from the review of the new Jones translation ([url:1vlkfr6m]http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2005/2005-09-62.html[/url]) that Jones made mistakes too. It must be a difficult text, so we must not blame the translators too much.

[hoplite14gr]

Well If you have a link to the original I will try and assist you as best as I can.
Kind regards
Stefanos

[Philhellene]

I don`t have the whole text, but only small excerpt of §7.2.