Greek footwear

[John Conyard]

Thanks for the reply.

I've decided on a boot with a soft leather for the upper. Seam on the instep, neatly hidden away.Some sort of soft tongue under the front lacing. From the floor the boot will be 39cm high.

[ouragos]

'seam on the instep' - you are not planning on having a heel are you? Quite a modern (to ancient Greece) invention, heels.

[John Conyard]

The heels will be at the bottom of my legs, not the bottom of my boots. Without them I
fall over.

[rogue_artist]

Sewing a heel inside the footwear would be like an insert and not a bad idea. Or heck, why not just use a leather insert instead of going through the trouble of sewing it in there? If you have the tool, you can shave a thick strip of leather to be thicker at the back and thin at the front, emulating a gel insole.

[John Conyard]

Gentlemen I really don't need a heel on my boots, internal or external. I never suggested it. I don't need it. It's not on the agenda. No way. No how. Forget it. Never mention it again. Ever. The end.

However, information on the position of the seam would be good, preferably backed by some sort of evidence. Any experiences others have had would be good as well.

Hopefully the boots should be done by the end of February.

[Martin Moser]

Hi John,

However, information on the position of the seam would be good, preferably backed by some sort of evidence. Any experiences others have had would be good as well.

If you can give me some more info (or a pic) of what the boots are going to look like, I'll be glad to comment based on my experience from my admittedly somewhat later (i.e. Roman) research of shoes.

Now back to those heels ...

[rogue_artist]

The heels will be at the bottom of my legs, not the bottom of my boots. Without them I
fall over.

ooooOOOOOooohhh!! That was satire!!! LOL sorry :oops:

[John Conyard]

Cheers Martin,

I'd be pleased to have your opinion on this riding boot.

I've changed my mind several times on the design.

To start with it is a design that has little functionality. I grip the horse with my upper leg. My leg hangs loose beneath the knee. So the only time the boot will touch the horse is when I'm giving it signals to turn, when I'm kicking it, on when I'm hanging on for dear life. I suspect the boot made a fashion statement.

As Giannis says no seams are visible. Except in one illustratiopn which may show a seam on the instep, and a sort of 3rd century Roman Dura boot toe detail.

The Thracian boot looks like a riding boot but with an added fur "sock" or stocking.

Initailly as a stop gap I made a very simple open toed sandal with attached legging. The leather is cut as a as I would a Roman sandal, with flat headed nails clamping the sole to the inner sole. Then I glued a second sole over the first to hide the nails. :oops: An inner sole hide the points of the nails. The boot laces up the front. It has a rear sewn seem. I cut the laces quite wide, and use three laces per foot. That way I can reproduce the laces around the cavalry boot at ankle, calf, and beneath the knee. I used goat leather and the whole thing fits tightly to the leg. They take 20 minutes to lace up :lol: It is a cheap simple design.

But for the real deal I've gone to a proffessional. I've asked for a seam on the instep of the boot. A tongue behind the lacing. And soles attached by a tunnel stitch. I actually like the feel of the reconstructions in the Osprey book on Tarentine cavalry.

Cheers

John

[Martin Moser]

Hi John,

just a quick reply for now ...

As Giannis says no seams are visible. Except in one illustratiopn which may show a seam on the instep, and a sort of 3rd century Roman Dura boot toe detail.

Yes, I know what you mean - exactly what I thought about the toe bit in the picture you provided.

But for the real deal I've gone to a proffessional. I've asked for a seam on the instep of the boot. A tongue behind the lacing. And soles attached by a tunnel stitch.

I don't know when the tunnel stitch method first appears, but it certainly around in the 1st cent. AD. Judging from closed shoes (all kninds of calcei, so to say) of that time and later seams are normally either at the side or running up the front (note: I'm not talking about carbatinae or caligae here). Interestingly, there is one find from Dura of a boot made in the following way, somewhat reminiscent of the picture of yours: It is a low cut shoe with one (on the innner side) or maybe two (inner and outer side) seams, attached to the sole by tunnel stitch apparently. The shaft is a seperate piece, originally sewn (now detached) to the upper edges of the shoe itself, the seam of which is on the back of the leather tube that is the shaft. I think a construction like this boot would be a good approach to the boot shown in the picture.

All for now, I'll keep my eyes open on more similarities ...

[John Conyard]

Cheers Martin,

Thank you for the comments.

May I ask which Dura shoe you mean? I only know this lot:

http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/DuraLeather.html

Best wishes

John

[Martin Moser]

Yes, the second from above is the one I'm referring to. I happen to have some additional information on this :-) )

[John Conyard]

That design looks very medieval to my eyes. Like something we get out of the Thames mud.

I want to minimise the number of seems, and hopefully go a one piece upper, with just a single seam. But it may not work out ........

[Martin Moser]

That design looks very medieval to my eyes.

From what I can make out about how the shoe is made it doesn't look like IMHO.

I want to minimise the number of seems, and hopefully go a one piece upper, with just a single seam. But it may not work out ........

Yes, with a boot that will not be that easy. There are a few boots from Egypt from somewhere between the 2nd and 8th century, I'll check those ...

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I found this vase by Brygos painter. it clearly shows that the inner leg wraps could be bulcky if they needed to be. Unfortunatley the red paint is not very well preserved and the structure of the stripes is not very clear. And although his boots may seem nice for winter,the rest of his "clothing" is bery...brave
Also found this one,by the same painter

It is interesting that this time the "sock" is not bulky, it is darker and there are those whote horizontal lines in the upper part,even though he has not wrapped the red stripes yet.
Khairete
Giannis

[John Conyard]

Thank you for those excellent illustratiions of leg coverings.

I'm used to multi-coloured hooped sprang socks from various Roman contexts. I suppose it is possible that the white lines in the lower picture shows something similar. Or perhaps some form of binding to hold a covering in place. They certainly seem to be covered up by the sandal straps.