The Roman Head from Mexico

[Tarbicus]

An objective examination of the evidence of a so-called Roman terracotta head found in Mexico, to while away half an hour if you're bored:

The Roman Head from Tecaxic-Calixtlahuaca, Mexico: A Review of the evidence

Paper prepared for the 66th Annual Meeting of the Society for American Archaeology in New Orleans, Louisiana (April 18-22, 2001).
Romeo H. Hristov (b) and Santiago Genovés T. (b)

(a) Department of Anthropology, University of New Mexico, Albuquerque NM 8713 1, U.S.A.

(b) Instituto de Investigaciones Antropológicas-UNAM, Ciudad Universitaria 04510, México, D.F., MEXICO

[hoplite14gr]

Ussually people made hypothesis of Ancient Atlandic crossings based on just various epics. Some where I read that a statue of a slave in the Vatican collection is showing a native American!
I guess we need a 21st century Schliemann to solve issue.
Kind regards
Stefanos

[Arthes]

Greetings,
a ship blown off course and landing in the Gulf of Mexico?
Sailors with ancestral artifacts....?
This head could have been taken by settlers such as the Vikings or Prince Madoc and travelled to where it was found.
If you think about the legends of the lands beyond the setting sun or the West.....somebody knew about America, as Atlantis had already disappeared.
I love it when something is found that should not be there or then......
I think the people of the past were sometimes a lot more intelligent and creative with more abilities than we give them credit for.
regards
Arthes

[arklore70]

Amen on that one.

While our ancestors may have been ignorant of a great many things we take for granted, by no means were they ever less intelligent, capable or gifted.

Cheers!!

Mike

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

I got my BA in Anthropology / Archaeology from the University of New Mexico. My wife got her MA there on Mesoamerican Archaeology. She scanned the article and gave a derisive snort. Since I am going yet again to UNM (this time in Art, so as I can make bronze Roman repro stuff), the Anthropology Dept. is about 84 m. from my hangout. I will wander over there out of curiosity and see if anybody knows what the haps are... This is finals week and everyone will be in a bad mood, so I will wait until January.

The article has some typos and the tone is not quite what I would expect... The Anthro Dept at UNM has high standards, a good reputation, and takes things pretty seriously.

Gaius
(Ralph)

[andym]

If a hairy Scandinavian can set sail from Scandinavia and settle(albeit for a short time)in North America without SatNav,why cant a Roman head find its way eventually to Mexico via trade routes?

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

Possibility is not the same as probability It is possible Robert E. Lee could have had a samurai sword at Appomattox, what with Perry being in Japan in 1859, but it is probable he did not. ( Yea! But you can't prove he didn't, man! So I am going to carry one with my Confederate reenactment stuff!. Actual case here...)

What trade routes are we talking about here?

There is a leap in logic to say If the Romans had a settlement in the Canaries, therefore there should be Roman artifacts in Mexico some 2500 miles away. Most fringe type claims seem to follow the "it is because I say so" argument. Scientific archeology follows that conclusions are based on multiple independent and verifiable occurrences in the archaeological record. I think the article's conclusion seems to state something like: ...it is possible that with a systematic study there might be a possibility that...

History, and archeology in particular, are subject to the "what if".
If there was Trans-Atlantic contact it would be marvelous. It would stimulate a lot of currently stagnate research. But it is no ones interest to accept a conclusion because it is convenient or sensational. I believe there is an ongoing argument on tunic colors and the possibility of Attic helmets?

Ralph

[Uwe Bahr]

Salvete omnes,

only few weeks or days ago I read a topic on this forum with a link to a website that provided some evidence that ancient Greek might have been in Mesoamerica already; couldn't find it again

Just my unscientific thoughts when I noticed that: could it not be that the Greek (may-be later an erred Roman ship too) arrived in America and impressed the native cultures so much that they might have seen them as "White Gods". I came on this idea as I recalled that the totally outnumbered Spanish conquistadors had an easier game with the Indians because the latter thought them to be their returned White Gods that once in the past had gone overseas. IIRC both cultures, the Inka under Atahualpa and the Aztecs under Montezuma had this faith.

Even the basic equipment of a Greek hoplite (metallic bell cuirass, metallic helmet, sword and round shield, lance / halberd) looked roughly and approximately equal with that of a Spanish conquistador, with the only revolutionary exception of fire weapons.

Not to forget the overall appearence: Greek and Spaniards oftenly white men with dark hair and beards, especially the last unknown to the Indians.

Only my highly speculative ideas, please don't crucify me for that - any thoughts?

Greets - Uwe

[Arthes]

Greetings,

Most fringe type claims seem to follow the "it is because I say so" argument. Scientific archeology follows that conclusions are based on multiple independent and verifiable occurrences in the archaeological record. I think the article's conclusion seems to state something like: ...it is possible that with a systematic study there might be a possibility that...
History, and archeology in particular, are subject to the "what if".
If there was Trans-Atlantic contact it would be marvelous. It would stimulate a lot of currently stagnate research. But it is no ones interest to accept a conclusion because it is convenient or sensational. I believe there is an ongoing argument on tunic colors and the possibility of Attic helmets?
Ralph

a frustrated archaeologist, who is probably classed as 'fringe type - although I have grown mine out now... '
Archaeologists and experts have been known to be incorrect, with a big I.
Interpretation has often been undermined by new finds and (not a dig at archaeologists, before I get attacked by trowels) why does every item found have engravings or paintings of Gods and Goddesses or ancestral heroes....why can it never be Janice with her whip and shield or Uncle Fred on the rampage against the tax collectors....(except in the case of Gladiator finds) I saw who was supposedly King Priam - only problem was, he seemed to have breasts..... :roll:
I appreciate some artifacts do have these people named, but it does not follow that every women portrayed with a certain helmet, shield and spear is Athena, it could be a female follower or maybe it was the equivalent of taking a photo in bygone clothes, or even living history.... :lol:
This may be an incident, as I mentioned, of a single ship being blown off course, maybe it did not make it back home or there is a written report about this 'strange land' that has been assumed to be the coast of Africa or somewhere else, because, as you say, it can not YET be verified by any other sources, that America had already been found.
regards
Arthes

[Viventius]

As an archaeologist, I'm keeping my mind open on this subject. It's not impossible, but I would like to see more finds from extremely well documented sources. If it is a 'real' find, so to speak, lordie knows how it got there, but one find does not make a lively trade route. A nice load of well stratified Roman amphora would be a bit more convincing.

btw, a crocodile was found at the recent (1980s) dig at Maiden Castle in the UK. Theories please about why it might be there :lol:

[john m roberts]

I hear too much of the "If Vikings could do it, Romans could do it" stuff. There's a world of difference between Scandinavian ships of the 10th century and Mediterranean ships of the 3rd. Even with their eminently seaworthy ships, the Vikings made the trip in relatively short hops from Iceland to Greenland to (probably) Newfoundland. It's a whole other ballgame to sail from the Canaries to Central America. Columbus, in ships of the late 15th century, just barely made it to the Caribbean. His ships were the highest-tech items of their day. Roman vessels were crude by comparison and they lacked even primitive compasses and navigation devices. I'll need a lot more convincing than the occasional terra-cotta beard.

[Robert Vermaat]

btw, a crocodile was found at the recent (1980s) dig at Maiden Castle in the UK. Theories please about why it might be there :lol:

Easy. A Roman soldier from Egypt brought his pet.

[DAN OF BRITANNIA]

Quite right, I mean it is fascinating when say, a small 'so called satue of Buddha' turns up in a Viking context in Birka, Sweden, or Roman trading posts/docks are tentatively identified in India (Remembering archaeologist Mortimer Wheeler's discussions on Roman trading installations and docks in Iran and India....probably spice trade with the Tamils).
However, the Romans do not enjoy a great reputation in the ancient world for their maritime ability and several thousand miles of Atlantic (not the Brendan Voyage route, but directly across very dangerous seas) is enough to keep this firmly in the field of fancy and creative speculation... until more solid archaeological evidence comes up I'll keep my head well below the parapet on this one.

[hoplite14gr]

I posted an image of the "astrolab of Anikythira" in the thread "world oldest map" in roman history thread. I belive ancients might navigated better than we think. Most ancient cargo ships were more sea-worthy than the trireme acording to the people who have examined their wrecks.
Map of Piri Reis and other maps, some of them only mentioned in other works, give a different world hydatography than today. A cerain Llyall Watson in his book "supernature" mentioned american dialects and polynicean dialects that their words seem to have ancient Greek roots
Plausibility is big but I will agree with Viventia´s point that an amphora unearthed in these locations woul be the most concrete positive thing we have to make the plausibility a certainty.
kind regards
Stefanos

[Praefectusclassis]

Most ancient cargo ships were more sea-worthy than the trireme acording to the people who have examined their wrecks.

I fully agree. Even with a 'blown off course'-reason, an ancient warship would never have made it across the sea. Or maybe the ship, but the crew would certainly not survive the trip.