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Mycenaean Warriors
#46
Quote:Hi Andrea,

Welcome to the forum and what a great contribution to start with!!

salimbeti\\n[quote]The Peleset “featherâ€ÂÂ
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#47
Quote:Well I am probably outdated in my bibliography, as I still think Homer is not describing the Mycenaean period at all, would you like to post some of your bibliograpgy relevant to those points, especially those concerning cremation? and I mean here not only the existence of cremation, but the general use, as described in the Illiad.
For me, the more important point however is that of the political institutions, those described in linear B show a complex burocracy with a lot of titles of which there is not a single mention in Homer, he instead describes a much more simple and rudimentary political enviroment.
For what concern the most exaustive analysis about the Iliaid, Troy, and Mycenaean world in general and the relevant evidencies that the poem it was compouse in the Mycenaean time a must to have is this book by Joachim Latacz Professor at the University of Basel actually considered one of the world top expert about the argument.
TROY and HOMER by Joachim Latacz Oxford University press 2004.
Evidences of late Mycenaean Cremation burials are in one case from a specific Archaeological report which I don't have now available and in any case has not been published as a book.
Reference of late mycenaean cremation burial (just in the area in front of Troy where the so called Achilleus tumulus is located) are mentioned in some books one of these is:
TROIA wie es wirklich aussah by Birgit Brandau
This book in Germany it is basically the report of the Prioject Troy the excavation program started on 1990 untill today of Manfred Korfmann (recentelly died) and his German/American Team.
Furtermore recentelly in Greece near Patras I have (together Dr. D'amato) personally witness an new huge excavation site with several Mycenaean to proto geometric Tholos tomb and burials.
Some cremation burial dated late Mycenaeans period have been found.
Of course those excavations are still on going so no report have been published and no further informations can be given.
For what concer the late Mycenaean general use a very exaustive book is.
LA TRANSIZIONE DAL MICENEO ALL'ALTO ARCAISMO (The transition from the mycenaean to the early archaism) by Institute for mycenaean- anatolic study in Rome
unfortunatelly this book is in Italian available only in archaeological edicated library.
For what I can remember various informations about this argument are also contained in other more gerical books but actually I can't find the reference (I have too many documentations to check)
As I told before the major problem in this research is that the most usefull informatons (somethimes never published for the general audience) are contained in specific dedicated books or archaeological report in most of the cases only available in the Arcaeologiacal biblioteque in Rome, Athens, Berlin etc..(only available for consult by acreditated arcaheologist people) .
Andrea
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#48
Well, I imagine you are aware that Latacz work is not free from criticism, his view is somehow representative of a German scholarship on the subject that is not shared in general in France or the US, but even in Germany he has attracted some strong criticism, for instance you can check Wolfgang Kullmann, Realität, Imagination und Theorie. Kleine Schriften zu Epos und Tragödie in der Antike.( Edited by Antonios Rengakos. Stuttgart: Franz Steiner Verlag, 2002) Kullmann first of all points to the oral nature of Greek culture in the so-called Dark Age, and follows oral theorists who have maintained that oral traditions do not reach back more than a few generations. In this view, oral traditions constantly re-focus on contemporary cultural concerns, sloughing off, in the process, details of the distant past.Tension between natives and Aeolian settlers may be inspiration for a story of a Trojan war, rather than any Bronze Age battles at Hisarlik.

As I said before, the main problem remains the political world of the Mycenaean palaces, so different from anything pictured by Homer, there is no trace of any burocratic administration, of any of the many burocratic titles showed in linar B tablets.
AKA Inaki
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#49
Quote:We finally have a real expert talking here. Everybody pay attention. Welcome to the board, Salimbeti.

I'd like to make it known that although I dragged Andrea into the public forums a year or so ago, I want it understood that on many debates I believe Dan makes extremely valid points (just as much as Andrea) and that BOTH sides of the argument must be listened to before a personal conclusion is drawn.

Both of these people have very valid opinions, and are probably the two most knowledgeable folks to grace their presence on the world wide web when it comes to late Bronze Age warfare. Please don't dispell one of their thoughts simply because the other is here. Andrea makes many points that Dan cannot argue with simply due to Andrea's large availability of resources that none of us could compare with. That's a natural fact.

Although, on matters that come to interpretation of Homer's texts, Dan makes just as important a contribution as most anyone, because he does have the ability to decipher it on his own, and does have the appropriate material in front of him as he does so.

Andrea is the main link we have to modern archealogy in Greece and the surrounding areas and discovering what's going on with it all. The interpretations Andrea makes are astounding because they can combine the knowledge of so many great names in the whole business, and half of us can't even pronounce those! Andrea also gets to see the real stuff where it was dug up, when it was, sometime! Talk about first-hand observations!

Now that I snuck my way in here, I'd like to invite anyone who's interested in this subject enough to participate in further conversations or keep up with more news on it over to the Bronze Age Center. We've had some cross-posts from the forum over in this thread already, but now I present you all with a formal invitation. Please regard it as my holiday gift!

http://s8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_Center

Merry Christmas!

-Gregory-
Gregory J. Liebau
The Bronze Age Center
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#50
Regarding Professor Latacz's theory. I haven't read his work yet but have a couple of queries.

1. If the Iliad is drawn from a single source then how does he reconcile the Alexandros/Paris anomaly?

2. Hektor is depicted carrying a shield that is clearly described as circular on three separate occasions and on another occasion it is described as "full-height" (touching neck and ankles when slung on the back). If Latacz is correct then Hektor can only have carried a full-height circular shield. If two different sources depict Hektor with different shields as has been suggested, then Latacz must be wrong and the Iliad wasn't drawn from a single source.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#51
Escuse my ignorance, I had read the Iliad in my mother language as a boy, but I'm trying to find the best version of Iliad in english, and the stores had many version of it, and every one have a diferent version of translation...

Who can recomend me a good source or version in english?...

Oh no body has post this! Confusedhock:

[Image: min_scan1.jpg]
  
Remarks by Philip on the Athenian Leaders:
Philip said that the Athenians were like the bust of Hermes: all mouth and dick. 
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#52
Lattimore's version is pretty good. The translation is reasonably accurate and he attempts to keep the poetic feel of the original. Butler's version is ok too and it can be found for free on several web sites.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#53
Quote:Tension between natives and Aeolian settlers may be inspiration for a story of a Trojan war, rather than any Bronze Age battles at Hisarlik.

If James and co is correct and his new chronology is closer to reality than the one we are currently using (read Centuries of Darkness) then there may only be a few generations between Homer's life and Troy (Hisarlik) VIIa. It is possible that Homer was recounting an event that only occurred maybe a century or so before his time.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#54
Quote:Lattimore's version is pretty good. The translation is reasonably accurate and he attempts to keep the poetic feel of the original. Butler's version is ok too and it can be found for free on several web sites.

Thanks so much DAN!, I add you a karma point. :wink:
  
Remarks by Philip on the Athenian Leaders:
Philip said that the Athenians were like the bust of Hermes: all mouth and dick. 
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#55
That's an interesting picture, Gioi,

Is it a representation of Hector? What do people think of the kit portrayed? I'm interested in whether you think it's right for the presumed date of the Trojan War (1200 BC); whether it fits in with Homer and, specifically, whether the shield and long sword seem right.

Congratulations on the award, Gioi!
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#56
Well the image is based on the warrior vase and it is supposed to depict a Proto-Geometric Warrior. That explains the Beotian shield. The artist is not very good and possibly poorly guided by the author. The book is is not published any more and it was a hasty production.
The title roughly translated was "The war art of ancient Greeks".
Kind regards[/i]
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#57
Thanks, Stefanos.
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#58
Khairete!

I'll second Gregory's invitation--sounds like we need you guys over on the Bronze Age Center!

A couple tidbits of my own: I'm one of the big supporters of the Low Chronology school. Just about every bit of culture from around 900 BC is a direct match of the same thing from 1200 BC, on 3 continents. And artifacts from both those times are frequently found mingled in the same archeological layer. Clearly there's a chronology problem! So yes, Homer was a lot closer to the action than we used to think. (Andrea's going to jump on me on this and point out all the experts who will disagree with me, but there is also a long list of experts who have been pointing out oddities in dates for the last 50 or 60 years!) (There's already an old thread on the BAC for the chronology debate, so let's NOT hijack this thread for it!)

Just as a personal observation, it looks to me like the Dipylon shield is NOT derived from the figure-8, but rather from the Hittite shield which it very closely resembles, being round or oval with sharp semicircular cutouts. Minor point!

And if anyone would like to compare my own reconstructions with Andrea's lovely work,

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/bronze.html

Note that I'm not entirely satisfied with much of what I've got so far, the simple result of not having enough solid information.

Enjoy!

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#59
Very enjoyable, Matt!
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#60
Agree with Matt. The Dipylon shield has little in common with the Figure-8. It is likely a Hittite derivation.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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