Mycenaean Warriors

[Paullus]

Hmmm that was not the shield I was talking about. There was another example that you used for circular body shields, Dan. I believe Andrea orinially posted it, showing a Mycenaean with a body shield attacking another. He also posted a small gold model of a figure-8 as comparision and the similarities were striking.

[Jason Hoffman]

Might I interject on this speculation, As many of you know i have been looking at armour and while this has been going on i have seen many representations of shields and i agree with Connolly when he says

"The Dipylon shield is almost certainly a direct desendant of the Mycenaean figure-eight type which disappears from art soon after 1400 BC." (Greece and Rome at War p. 51).

Regardless of the date differences between the Trojan war and Homers writing down of the orally transfered epic, the archaealogical evidence suggests that the figure 8 shield had been out of use for some 200 years by the time of the Trojan war.

[hoplite14gr]

I will recite what I posted earlier. Homer describes the noble warriors.
No ne can really disprove that the pike armed infantrymen did not use the 8-shape or sakkos shields. The Thera fresco shows and the "boar" helemt described by Homer and the sakkos shield.
Kind regards

[Paullus]

Another theory I've heard is that Ajax and Hector are characters from a much older epic, with suitable equipment for early centuries, including figure-8s. On the Ajax tower shield bit I'm not there with that, but if we are talking about a figure-8 for Hector that might be one explanation. Homer might simply be trying to rationalize an even older character with a more modern era.

Plus by saying that could not be would to say that Homer made absolutely no mistakes and that its impossible that there were no transcription errors by scribes. Its not like Homer was the only "writer" of the Illiad either, so he himself may have taken the description of Hector's shield as something else from an older form of the story. In the end the Iliad is just a myth and a story. So what if Hector has a figure 8? In the Matrix the characters drive out of production cars and use phones dating from the 60s and 70s. Not totally historical, but its a story element.

That being said one should not just pick and choose what elements to see as historical. Neither can we say the Iliad and Homer are 100%. But the new finds, particularly in Thebes, are quite intriguing in their similarity to the Iliad, and in some ways to Connolly's reconstructions.

[Anonymous]

Mr Allen,

Might I suggest that you actually read the Iliad before blithely dismissing three years of my life. The full-height shield that I speak of is specifically described as touching the neck and the ankles when slung on the back [6.117]. It is hardly open to misinterpretation. There is absolutely nothing in the Iliad to suggest that the Figure-8 shield was in use during the events described by Homer and very little in the archaeological record to suggest that the figure-8 shield was in use either in the 11th century BC or later during the alleged time of Homer's life. There is absolutely no reason to assume that the full height shield attributed to Hektor is the Figure-8 typology. It could be the so-called "tower" shield. It could be a rectangular shield. It could be the oval shield on the Dodwell pyxis. It could be an oval shield with scallops cut out of it. It could be the shield described by Tyrtaeus that covers "thighs, shins, breast, and shoulders." [XI.23] There is also evidence for full-height circular shields both in the Aegean record and in other cultures. The North American Indians, for example, made extensive use of full-height circular (not oval) shields and their method of warfare is very similar to that described by Homer. In the Aegean there is a full-height circular shield on a seal found on Cyprus and the vase of Aristonthos might also be depicting full-height circular shields.

Give me one reason why the "neck to ankle" shield described by Homer was the Figure-8 typology and not any of the others in the archaeological record.

Dan, I've never dismissed three years of your life, blithely or otherwise.
I have stated, however, that I HAVE read the Iliad. Please read what I write, if you propose to take issue with it. Incidentally, I have recently acquired another copy of the Iliad and, having just finished Thucydides, I will go back to Homer when I've completed Herodotus.

It's clear you misunderstood me. I said the Iliad isn't relevant IN THIS DEBATE and it isn't relevant to the accurate re-construction of arms and armour of the Trojan War period. It struck me that the models we were looking at were not intended to reflect Homer's descriptions, but an attempt to present what the modeller had learned from the researches of others. So Homer is irrelevant, Q.E.D., in this particular instance.

You also seem to be running away with the idea that I'm trying to persuade you that the figure-8 was the only shield in use in the Trojan Wars, whereas I merely said I thought thsat such shields would have been around at the time of the Trojan War.

Your basic mistake seems to be that you are so keen to parade what you learnt from Homer, that you'll give us all chapter and verse from it whether it's relevant or not. That's mere pedantry, Dan.

I have to say that your postings frequently come across as pretty patronising and whilst I recognise that you have had the privilege of making this area your field of study, and have clearly made much of that opportunity (you did just "happen" to mention being in an Honours class), I'm still disinclined to put up with anyone "putting on the dog" with me.

Now, I offer you a chance to step back and see that I never intended any slight to you (or Homer) and perhaps you can convince me that you weren't taking a superior tone with me.

[Dan Howard]

Several points.

Reading a book 30-odd years ago hardly counts as being familiar with the text IMO.

As Jason said, the figure-8 shield went out of use at least 200 years before the alleged date of the Trojan War. Same with the "tower" shield.

Homer describes many shields in detail and all of them are circular in shape. Granted they are all carried by the elite and there is little mention of the common troops.

The text specifies that different size shields were carried by different people but there is no indication that any of them were anything other than circular.

It is highly likely that some troops in the Trojan War carried shields that were not circular but it is ridiculous to claim that they must have been of the figure-8 or tower typology since neither is evident in the relevant time period. There are many other typologies that are far more likely.

Contrary to the opinions of some there certainly is enough evidence to justify making a reconstruction of a "full-height" circular shield to determine whether it is feasible to use it in the method described by Homer. The whole point of my paper was to draw all that evidence together. It is unreasonable to expect me to paste its 9000+ word content on here though.

I'll finish with this image. It is a seal found on Cyprus and dating to around 1200BC.
http://s8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_C ... id=3868003
It may not cover "neck to ankle" but it certainly extends down past the knees and is consistent with Tyrtaeus' shield that covers "chin to shin" It is the best example of a Homeric shield that I have seen. Note the detailed embossing on the bronze face, the central boss, and the circular shape.

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Paul/Dan,

I've sent you a PM about what seems to be descending into a Trojan War sulking match!
This thread is very interesting, so before you decide who's playing Achilles and who is Agamemnon, maybe Odysseus might suggest you get back to the issue?

[Aryaman2]

Well, first of all, I don´t think there is any proof that the war of Troy ever happened, is there any? but specifically on shields in Homer, I seem to recall that he says the shield of Achilles was made by Hephaistos himself, what for the credibility of such a source?

[hoplite14gr]

Well, first of all, I don´t think there is any proof that the war of Troy ever happened, is there any? but specifically on shields in Homer, I seem to recall that he says the shield of Achilles was made by Hephaistos himself, what for the credibility of such a source?

Well not the war as described by Homer or not the way that Homer understood it. But there are evidence of large wars and strife in the eastern mediteranean from 1250 to 1100.
The Trojan war is more widly known to the public because of the Homric epics.
But the operations in Cilicia, Syria, Cyprus have not so famous epics related to them as do the Dardamelle operations.
The references are:
Daretis Frygii: HISTORIA DE EXCIDIO TROJAE, Dederich, Bonn 1835
THE HISTORY AND THE HOMERIC ILIAD-ACHEANS In HITTITE DOCUMENTS Oxford 1959
Ras-Shamra xx.238 Deutchen-Orient Gesellshaft, Berlin 1923
J. Breasted: ANCIENT RECORDS Vol.4
M.A. Korostovtzev: POOTESHESTVIE UN-AMUNA Science Akademy Moscow 1960
Rankin: Assyrian military power Cambridge 1975
Cline: HITTITE EMBARGO AGAINST THE MYCENEANS Historia40, 1991
Bryce: THE KINGDOM OF THE HITTITES Oxford 1998
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF ARCHAOLOGY
This is but a fraction of the sources. You can research more in the Bronze Age forum if you like.
Kind regards

[Anonymous]

Hi Paul/Dan,

I've sent you a PM about what seems to be descending into a Trojan War sulking match!
This thread is very interesting, so before you decide who's playing Achilles and who is Agamemnon, maybe Odysseus might suggest you get back to the issue?

I've been thinking the same myself.

[Robert Vermaat]

Good!

Now, as I read it, we seem to have a source that describes an event of centuries earlier, including details of later weapons as well as weapons contemporary with the event?

And now I've used the 'C-word', do we know exactly and for sure, when the Trojan War took place? Not 'IF', but 'WHEN"?

[salimbeti]

Hi everybody
I don’t follow this forum because I’m not so interested in Roman army argument but in this case being my name and web page taken as reference for this specific “Achaeansâ€ÂÂ

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Andrea,

Welcome to the forum and what a great contribution to start with!!

salimbeti\\n[quote]The Peleset “featherâ€ÂÂ

[john m roberts]

We finally have a real expert talking here. Everybody pay attention. Welcome to the board, Salimbeti.

[Aryaman2]

Hi everybody
.
Forget the old theory that in the Iliad some of the elements are probably coming from Homer period.
mostly of this elements like cremations, iron weapons, proto-phalange tactics, cities described in the ships' catalogue etc... have been already proved, by archaeology, that were already on usage during he late Mycenaean period!!

Well I am probably outdated in my bibliography, as I still think Homer is not describing the Mycenaean period at all, would you like to post some of your bibliograpgy relevant to those points, especially those concerning cremation? and I mean here not only the existence of cremation, but the general use, as described in the Illiad.
For me, the more important point however is that of the political institutions, those described in linear B show a complex burocracy with a lot of titles of which there is not a single mention in Homer, he instead describes a much more simple and rudimentary political enviroment.