Vambraces

[Marcus Germanicus Ferox]

Hi guys

I know we have discussed this on another thread, but is there any evidence for the use of vambraces of any kind in Greek Military History.

Regards

Mark

[Paullus]

Early hoplites in the 8th and 7th centuries used them, but their use dwindled after the mid-6th century. Connolly says that several examples of vambraces and upper arm guards have been found at Olympia. He also says the style of construction is very similar to that used by the Mycenaeans, so we can probably expect to find some similar Bronze Age pieces, minus the muscled embossing of course

[hoplite14gr]

Agree with Paul. Late Geometric and Archaic period warriors were something like "foot-knights and the armies were possibly smaller thn the Classical era.
A russian miniture company reconstructed one such warrior in the following link.
http://www.soldiers-russia.com/new_sold ... _pb223.htm
The horned helmet actually exists in Geneva Museum and was found in Taranto!
When the Culure ministry here display the "Thebes arsenal" we might see what the Bronze age vambraces looked like.
Kind regards

[Anonymous]

That's the second time you've mentioned the "Thebes Arsenal", Stefanos. What information do you have, so far? (Don't tell me, let me guess - it was excavated thirty years ago and they're not quite ready to publish, yet) :evil:

That's a cute model.

[Dan Howard]

Thebes is being excavated right now. don't expect any useful reports for several years. D'Amato's upoming book (next year?) might have some useful photos though.

[Marcus Germanicus Ferox]

Thanks for that guys

Are leather vambraces acceptable for a Hoplite or are we back in the realms of Hollywood as with the Romans?

Regards

Mark.

[Matthew Amt]

Marcus, I beg you not to use leather vambraces! VERY Hollywood, indeed. There were vambraces found with the Dendra panoply, traditionally dated to 1400 BC (but younger than that once the chronology is cleaned up). And all the Geometric and Archaic examples already mentioned. I've just never seen anything that suggested hoplites (or legionaries!) wore metal or leather vambraces any time after c. 550 BC. The modern urge to put something on the ancient wrist is still a puzzle to me!

Khairete,

Matthew

[Anonymous]

That's easy, Matt, they do it because it looks "haaaaarrrrd"!
Thanks for the tip on Thebes, Dan, I await the publications with bated breath!

[hoplite14gr]

Buzantine texts mention "Cheirofulaktir" = xnad protectror.
Leather to protect the archer's wrist from the bow chord "swings".
In my opinion any one who reneacts an ancient archer can use it.
I think the plaque in Crete that Mc Bright used to reconstract the Cretan archer in the Osprey series shows them.
Kind regards

[Anonymous]

What you could do, Mark, is buy a heavy bracelet. I got one about two-and-a-half inches wide from a charity stall for pennies, but "It's all Greek" do one, based on a find, which is very nice. I don't know what it would cost, though.

[Theodosius the Great]

Marcus, I beg you not to use leather vambraces! VERY Hollywood, indeed.

Here's a classic example :lol: :lol:

They're metal of course, not that either version is historical it seems :roll:

[Marcus Germanicus Ferox]

Hi there chaps and happy new year.

Thanks for the tips, I think we'll go into battle "bare wristed". Seems amazing to me that with all the money and resources they have, these studios still get things historically inaccurate.

Later

Ferox.

[Anonymous]

But Mark, that's not because they CAN'T get it right, but simply because they DON'T WANT to. A director has to take ownership of the story, so he imposes a particular stamp on it. I think "300" is showing sad signs of this. As soon as I saw the phrase "graphic novel" I thought, "Oh-ohhh..."

The Costume designer also has a reputation to make, so he has to do more than just get it right; he has to set a style. I think the worst example of this was "First Knight", with all the Arthurian Knights looking as if they'd just come off the catwalk in some Italian fashion-house. (The designer WAS Italian). A good example of it was "Excalibur" where everyone had animalistic helmets and grey armour, until Arthur came along, at which point the helmets lost their fangs and snouts and the armour shone (for the goodies, at least). Both films were fantasy, but I felt that one had a better "concept" than the other.

Other excuses regularly offered for inaccuracies are Audience Expectation and Accessibility. The first says, for example, that Vikings must be covered in fur and the second that Goodies and Baddies must be easily distinguishable - hence the High Medieval "English" ship and shields in "The Vikings". Finally, there is always the tendency to want to "tart things up" - clearly exemplified in the photo. Well, I can understand that...Metal jobs like the one in the photo (just a glorified bracelet) will actually chew your wrist up if you wear them in battle.

However, if you do the Archaic Period, you've got a good excuse to wear bronze vambraces, look like a tart and be accurate! And, if they're made right, they shouldn't bite you.

[Marcus Germanicus Ferox]

Ok Paul I hear what you are saying, but I have spent a good deal of my own time, unpaid teaching 7-11 year olds (and some grown ups - mind you they behave like 7-11 year olds when they see pointy things!!!) and have strived to get my kit as accurate as I can with limited funds. These guys have huge budgets and period experts to consult. If we can do it then surely these guys can!!

It makes for a better film, series, whatever and gives those not so anally retentive as us re enactors, a real idea of what things were like - you use excalibur - great yarn but about 600 years too late.

Not doing Archaic so NO VAMBRACES!!! see you in June??

[hoplite14gr]

Archers too can use some leather or cloth protection for the bow hand I think. Might be of interest for those who want to re-enact Cretan archers.
Kind regards