Battle of Andrianople

[Robert Vermaat]

I have serious doubts if super heavy catafracts existed in the roman army from 4th to 6th century AD. I feel real extra heavy cavalry appeared at the 7th century and it was possibly part of the imperial household.
Kind regards

I would have to concur. For years Art Historians were not distinguishing between antique and archaiczing armor in icons and contemporary armor. It is obvious now that the icons reflect more contemporary practice in the military than antique styles. The klibanion-armored military saint is usually a dead give-away that we are looking at a post iconoclasm representation. The earlier ones are scale armor without the typical lamellar laces.

I'm not so sure about that. OK, this type of cavalry was extremely expensive to maintain, which surely means there would not be many of them and not spread out over regional armies. But also remember that specialist cavalry was usually hired by the Romans, meaning there would be no reason why they did not do that during the 4th to 6th centuries.

[tlclark]

Archaological evidence in some late Roman baths outside Thessaloniki seem to add weight to your arguments. But metal boilers are not 100 % sure.
But your point is interesting.

Kind regards

There's no doubt that there were metal boilers. Both Fikret Yegul's book and Nielsens "Thermae et balnea" have numerous examples. The only question is did anyone ever apply the term "klivanos" to them.

Klivanos is not listed in the Liddle and Scott so that means it's a later term.

[hoplite14gr]

Klivanos in early archaic attik dialect is KRIVANOS.
I think it si mention in Aristofanis.
Liddle and Scott is the best place to start but it does not contain everything.
Kind regards

[tlclark]

Klivanos in early archaic attik dialect is KRIVANOS.
I think it si mention in Aristofanis.
Liddle and Scott is the best place to start but it does not contain everything.
Kind regards

Thanks for the tip!

Yeah, L&S is notoriously bad on Middle Greek or adopted foreign words.

I looked up the latin bath terms in the Langenscheidt, and I dont' think there is a term that distinguishes the actual furnace from the boiler in the latin. They seem to use Forno for both the actual furnace and the boiler. If so, it would be possible that the term in Greek was applied to both as well, but I can find no evidence that krivanos was ever applied to a bath furnace.

Found Krivanos in the L&S. First listing was ... you guessed it...clibinarios...heavy armored cavalryman. Second listings include clay cooking pots, potter's kilns and various other cooking and firing kilns and furnaces. No mention of any kind of bath related function.

I have access to the TLG, I will look up both terms and see what pops up. If it occurs in the context of a loutros or gymnasium I bet we can say with some confidence that Krivanos was used to describe bath furnaces and hence boilers likely made up of bronze plate. If not, then I wouldn't further this speculation of mine any further.

Thanks.

[Robert Vermaat]

Guys, we are a bit off track here - the original discussion was about clibanarii at Adrianople. A new thread, perhaps?

[Razor]

hehe what was the question again? :roll:

Anyway to give an answer to the question I think there were Cataphracts or heavily armoured horses present. I mean if the East Roman army in the battle at Hadrianopolis was an imperial army then I really can't believe that the cataphractarii/clibanarii are left out as they were one of the most expensive units close to the emperor himself. Unfortunatly I can't support my answer with a specific source but I dont think this is completely nonsense.

[hoplite14gr]

What ever the admin thinks best.
But what it came from all this is that we are uncertain what type of heavy horse Valens had with him. In the comfusioon of war it is not unlikely that a "heavy" unit had picked up "extra heavy" elemnt on the way but I think they were not enought ot do any difference.
So my opinion is that there was "heavy" roman cavalry in battle but not "extra heavy" (aka catafracts.)

Kind regards

P. S. I feel our comment on armor could go in an older thread bout catafracts but I do not remeber where it was.

[Robert Vermaat]

I think there were Cataphracts or heavily armoured horses present. I mean if the East Roman army in the battle at Hadrianopolis was an imperial army then I really can't believe that the cataphractarii/clibanarii are left out as they were one of the most expensive units close to the emperor himself.

In the comfusioon of war it is not unlikely that a "heavy" unit had picked up "extra heavy" element on the way but I think they were not enought ot do any difference.
So my opinion is that there was "heavy" roman cavalry in battle but not "extra heavy" (aka catafracts.)

OK, looked it up. It's possible.
Vexillationes Palatinae:
Equites Promoti Seniores, heavy cavalry (but not clibanarii). Potetius was killed in the battle, he was their tribune.
Comites Clibanarii - they belonged to the Praesentalis forces, so they were most probably present at the battle, although it's not attested by anyone. there is still a possibility that they were left behind in the East.
Vexillationes Comitatenses:
Equites Cataphractarii Biturigenses - possible
Equites Armigeri Seniores - possible
Equites Primi Scutarii - one unit of scutarii was certainly there
Equites Primi Clibanarii - possible

[Theodosius the Great]

Hi Vortigern,

Thanks. That's good info. So good that you had to repeat it twice ? :wink:


But what about this Eastern unit :

Schola Scutariorum Clibanariorum

Surely they would've been with Valens as his escort, wouldn't they ?

Oh, and here're those illustrations of cataphracts I mentioned earlier :



119.) Sassanid Half Armored Horse
120.) Byzantine Half Armored Horse
122.) Fully Armored Cataphract Horse

These are from "The Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome 150 BC to 600 AD" (3rd edition) by Phil Barker.

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Vortigern,
Thanks. That's good info. So good that you had to repeat it twice ? :wink:
But what about this Eastern unit :
Schola Scutariorum Clibanariorum
Surely they would've been with Valens as his escort, wouldn't they ?

Twice? Weird. The system is acting up these days, sometimes I can't get access, sometimes it posts double?

I'll look up the scholae, but i have a dim memory of them being raised only after Adrianople.