Roman Customs that persist in modern (Italian etc) society

[flavia]

I am doing research into ancient customs that have persisted till today's times, Such as my late husband once surprised me by letting out a loud whistle at lightning and the following thunder. Ancient romans did that also. and the expression "Jiminy" supposedly from a Roman expression"Gemini" meaning Castor and Pollux(Have I spelled that correct??) Can any one add anything?? Flavia

[Kevin J. Aschenmeier]

Flavia:
Do you have access to any of the writings of Walter Burkert? A lot of his theories are perhaps a bit stretched, but he traces many "cultural" activities through antiquity. Some of these survive.

My favourite, and I apologize if I offend anyone, is marriage as a relic of ancient blood sacrifice.

Take your "typical" sacrifice:

Chosen animal is often adorned. Bride is dressed in white, is adorned.
Animal is led to a "sacred" place. Bride goes to church.
Animal is led to sacrificial altar. Bride is led to altar.
Sacrificial "pirests" often lead animal with a basket of grain. This shows the animal has followed willingly. The grain is then thrown on the altar or the animal. Just as rice is thrown on the newly wed couple.
The animal is slaughtered and all share in the meal. There is a wedding feast.

I know it is a stretch, but there seems to be surviving parralels. Reading Burkert is always interesting, even if you are not sold on his ideas.

Kevin

[Caballo]

I think the Church is a fertile source:-
-Priests' long vestments from Late Roman
-Pope's red boots from the Emperor's red shoes
-Christmas on 25/12 from Mithraic festival
-The vexillum style banner used by many churches
-And of course, the use of Latin until relatively recently

Hopefully, this will not offend anybody- but the church was one of the major institutions in Late Roman times, and survived. It also picked up and absorbed many pre-Christian customs.

Regards

Britannicus

[Goffredo]

This is a very personal opinion I have about Italians and I do think that it goes back to roman times.
Today, as in roman times, a person invests much in "connections", on knowing someone that can be useful when the need arises. A weak man is willing to invest some of his dignity by knocking on the door of the powerful to get help to solve a problem or streamline some procuedure. But it works both ways. The powerful give attention and even favors to a client, not out of immediate necessity but knowing that the client may be called upon to pay-back in the future. Connections help wheather-out difficult moments and modern day italians, as ancient romans, make great use of them.

An abstract, cold and neutral State, or Bureaucracy, that works according to prescribed rules is not truely Italian. If you want a problem to be solved do not resort to the bureaucrat but to the person! This is positive because human relations are important and bureaucray may be alienating. But the negative side is that people that think this way do not develop a modern notion of society and State and think things can be solved by-passing laws, just by knowing the right person. When this mind-set degenerates then you have associations that work in a parallel universe, a parallel power to that of the State, secret associations, masonic-like, and even mafias.

[flavia]

Flavia:
Do you have access to any of the writings of Walter Burkert? A lot of his theories are perhaps a bit stretched, but he traces many "cultural" activities through antiquity. Some of these survive.

My favourite, and I apologize if I offend anyone, is marriage as a relic of ancient blood sacrifice.

Take your "typical" sacrifice:

Chosen animal is often adorned. Bride is dressed in white, is adorned.
Animal is led to a "sacred" place. Bride goes to church.
Animal is led to sacrificial altar. Bride is led to altar.
Sacrificial "pirests" often lead animal with a basket of grain. This shows the animal has followed willingly. The grain is then thrown on the altar or the animal. Just as rice is thrown on the newly wed couple.
The animal is slaughtered and all share in the meal. There is a wedding feast.

I know it is a stretch, but there seems to be surviving parralels. Reading Burkert is always interesting, even if you are not sold on his ideas.

Kevin

I don'y think it is that much of a stretch there are too many parallels aren't there to be coincidence Thanks Flavia

[flavia]

I think the Church is a fertile source:-
-Priests' long vestments from Late Roman
-Pope's red boots from the Emperor's red shoes
-Christmas on 25/12 from Mithraic festival
-The vexillum style banner used by many churches
-And of course, the use of Latin until relatively recently

Hopefully, this will not offend anybody- but the church was one of the major institutions in Late Roman times, and survived. It also picked up and absorbed many pre-Christian customs.

Regards

Britannicus

Thanks I think you are right on with this one even to the burning and purifying the altar with incense. Flavia

[flavia]

This is a very personal opinion I have about Italians and I do think that it goes back to roman times.
Today, as in roman times, a person invests much in "connections", on knowing someone that can be useful when the need arises. A weak man is willing to invest some of his dignity by knocking on the door of the powerful to get help to solve a problem or streamline some procuedure. But it works both ways. The powerful give attention and even favors to a client, not out of immediate necessity but knowing that the client may be called upon to pay-back in the future. Connections help wheather-out difficult moments and modern day italians, as ancient romans, make great use of them.

An abstract, cold and neutral State, or Bureaucracy, that works according to prescribed rules is not truely Italian. If you want a problem to be solved do not resort to the bureaucrat but to the person! This is positive because human relations are important and bureaucray may be alienating. But the negative side is that people that think this way do not develop a modern notion of society and State and think things can be solved by-passing laws, just by knowing the right person. When this mind-set degenerates then you have associations that work in a parallel universe, a parallel power to that of the State, secret associations, masonic-like, and even mafias.

Hi Goffredo I think and have thought for sometime that this is very true and your feelling the same way helps to confirm it Flavia

[john m roberts]

One of the Pope's titles is PontifexMaximus. The bishop's crook is identical to the lituus of the roman Augurate.
In Spain until the 19th century there was an equestrian game called the "jugo de canos" (game of canes) in which two teams of horsemen, one dressed as Moors, the other as Christians, rode at each other in turn and cast canes at one another, same as the hippakia gymnasia.

[flavia]

One of the Pope's titles is PontifexMaximus. The bishop's crook is identical to the lituus of the roman Augurate.
In Spain until the 19th century there was an equestrian game called the "jugo de canos" (game of canes) in which two teams of horsemen, one dressed as Moors, the other as Christians, rode at each other in turn and cast canes at one another, same as the hippakia gymnasia.

what is meant by canes are they canes as we know them now?? Flavia

[john m roberts]

They were stalks of cane thrown in imitation of javelins.

[flavia]

They were stalks of cane thrown in imitation of javelins.

Thanks I will add this to my research. Many festivals persist also only the object on display ( statues) have changed from a pagan idol( a statue of Venus) to the Icon of Mary. Flavia

[Casmin]

A modern Italian curse called "mano cornuto" dates back to antiquity. It was also used to ward off curses like the evil eye. I remember my sister had a pendant of the mano cornuto when she was a teenager. They were pretty popular among the Italian-Americans in my area during the 80's.

Oh and I almost forgot that the middle-finger dates back to Roman times. I remember reading that a Roman performer was getting jeered by the crowd so he flipped them the bird.

For a while I thought it was interesting that Roman basilicae resembled modern day churches. I came to find out that in ancient times basilicae were modified from being administrative buildings to churches. The architectural style lasts to this day.

[flavia]

A modern Italian curse called "mano cornuto" dates back to antiquity. It was also used to ward off curses like the evil eye. I remember my sister had a pendant of the mano cornuto when she was a teenager. They were pretty popular among the Italian-Americans in my area during the 80's.

Oh and I almost forgot that the middle-finger dates back to Roman times. I remember reading that a Roman performer was getting jeered by the crowd so he flipped them the bird.

For a while I thought it was interesting that Roman basilicae resembled modern day churches. I came to find out that in ancient times basilicae were modified from being administrative buildings to churches. The architectural style lasts to this day.

I like the idea of the finger going back so far.What does mano cornuto look like Do you mean when you make horns with with your small and first finger. Your right it is an very old sign. In Venezia they say a person has a "testa dura" a head like a hard pot supposed to be from army talk. So is the tradition of boots on a table being bad luck. Flavia aka Carolina

[Mitra]

Casmin , i think you talk of "fare le corna" (make to horns) ; the geste have multiple significances .It is a "scongiuro" (exorcism against the misfortune) but also a insult if maked to a man , because signify than your wife be unfaithful to you ("essere un cornuto"="to be a horned").