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Crupellarius
#1
Has anyone got a good picture of the bronze Statuette ?

Cheers
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#2
Here's my drawing of an interpretation of a Crupellarius next to Mike Bishop's drawing of the stauette found in France.
(Featuring in my wife's book).

I guess you'll have to as Mike for the original source & or permission to feature his drawing in a publication etc.
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#3
I must stress that my drawing is ONLY an interpretation.

The shield's only inspiration was the Cruppelarii's strong association with Gaul, and as one doesn't feature on the stauette I used something non-descript that may pass for basic Gaulish, or a theatrical idea of what may pass for Gaulish in Later Republican Rome.

A proto-type looking lorica and manica as well as segmented thigh guards combined with solid greaves seemed appropriate.

The helmet is totally unusual and I cannot think of anything similar - archaeologically, so I invented using the very vague features on the statuette, the nose (if that's what it is) I drew as a folded apex of metal, as it seemed easier to produce and would have a greater integrity.

I'm sure people have other ideas.

I hope this helps... but Mike Bishop would be the best bloke to ask I guess.
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#4
I think the helmet of the crupellarius re-enacted by FAMILIA GLADIATORIA(Hungary) is very close to your drawing.

[Image: crupellarius-n.jpg]
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#5
Wow, excellent - hats off to those Hungarian guys!

No idea that a re-creation existed, this looks so credible!
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#6
In hindsight - I really wish we'd known about this reconstruction, it would've featured in the book far better than my line drawing!
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#7
Cheers Guys

I managed to get a small image of the web but not too detailed. Give me an e-mail to [email protected] and I will copy you ..or Google it.

Dan ..got your image from a book on Gladiators I bought a week ago :wink:

I am not fully satisfied with the Crupellarious as having existed at all as the descriptions echo those of a Medaeval Knight whoapparently needed to be hoisted on his horse by a pully system and could not rise if knocked over .... I have seen a fully armoured knight do a cartwheel Confusedhock: Sounds like a bit of old style Cock & Bull to me, something to add a bit of flavour to the story.

What the statuette reminds me of are 1st World War soldiers at bayonet practice. The were padded up and had Heath Robinson helmets and used those plunger pretend bayonets.

The image of the statuette gives me rise to consider that it might be a practice outfit;

(a) the padding is covering where dangerous hits would be taken in a real bout and the "plates/padding" is horizontal hugging the body like padding rather tham hermetically sealed plates.

(b) the helmet looks cheap & easy to produce as a practice helmet

© you could go for it in such a get up with a wooded sword

You may ask ;

(a) why practice in an outfit differing from that you will fight in ? To save the good kit for the arena
(b) why would someone make a statuette of apractice kit ? Roman geeks
© why would a venerable old Roman lie ? Same reason as Tony Blair ( who may or may not have lied :roll: )

Anyway ... let me have it guys ... am I mad or what ?
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#8
Without more specific comments or data accompanying the statue- it's all guesswork and interpretation.

'why would a venerable old Roman lie ?'

Well... There is one theory that the Notiatia Dignitatum (that lovely medieval copy of the later Roman document of military units) itself may be little more than exaggerated propaganda or the other more bizarre theory (but not beyond the realms of reason) is that it was mis-iformation, intended to fall into enemy hands (A 'look at the size of our army' trick).

Humans don't change, I'm often dubious of re-enactors who claim to have "The Best", "The definitive" or sadder "The largest 'x period' group"... when you see them there's normally only half a dozen at a show... a classic insecurity thing (we're all growing and learning together after all).

Perhaps our ancestors were no different.
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#9
I agree Dan .... the funs in the guesswork and experimentation though eh !!

I like to do a bit of blue sky thinking on these things.

Conal
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#10
Exactly my dear fellow.
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#11
Quote:In hindsight - I really wish we'd known about this reconstruction, it would've featured in the book far better than my line drawing!

Well, in fact their reconstruction is based in that estatuette. The text following the photo is:

"Tacitus writes, that the warriors of a Gallic tribe used to wear this type of battle equipment and caused serious trouble to the Romans, who had to replace their usual arms to axe and pick in order to penetrate the hermetically sealed armour. It is likely that this was the source were the inventors of the various gladiator branches got their ideas from. A bronze statuette found in Vertigny bears witness to his fighting gear. His regular opponent – based on Tacitus – is assumed to be a gladiator bearing a huge shield and double axe." http://www.gladiator.at/index2en.html

If you want more informations, probably you want to talk directly. Their contact is:

[email protected]

I know that group because they have been present at some Tarraco Viva's festivals and at Ludi Veleienses, at Iruña (both in the Hispaniae).

I think they not only have a good show and appereance. Their material, in my modest opinion, is very well researched.
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#12
Hello all

Here are the Tacitus details:

Quote:Tacitus "Annales" III, 43: "[gladiatores]...quibus more gentico, continuum ferri tegimen crupellarios vocant, inferendis ictibus inhabilis, accipiendi impenetrabilis" ("[gladiators]... called crupellarii who, in the local manner, were entirely encased in iron and , although they were ill-adapted to inflict wounds, they were impervious to receiving them"

Here is another slightly longer translation:

Quote:He also distributed among the youth arms which he had had
secretly manufactured. There were forty thousand, one fifth armed like
our legionaries; the rest had spears and knives and other weapons used
in the chase. In addition were some slaves who were being trained
for gladiators, clad after the national fashion in a complete covering
of steel. They were called crupellarii, and though they were
ill-adapted for inflicting wounds, they were impenetrable to them.
This army was continually increased, not yet by any open combination
of the neighbouring states, but by zealous individual enthusiasm, as
well as by strife between the Roman generals, each of whom claimed the
war for himself. Varro after a while, as he was infirm and aged,
yielded to Silius who was in his prime.

Its a project of mine to try and do one of these as well, but I am stuck on what to think of the various materials used for the armour. Padding, iron etc ...

The guys where clearly more than the standard legionry of the time as they get a special mention ....
Nice to be back from hols and find everything so bouyant ... the forums really coming on, well done everyone Smile [/quote]
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#13
Quote:Well... There is one theory that the Notiatia Dignitatum (that lovely medieval copy of the later Roman document of military units) itself may be little more than exaggerated propaganda or the other more bizarre theory (but not beyond the realms of reason) is that it was mis-iformation, intended to fall into enemy hands (A 'look at the size of our army' trick).

Ohh Dan! How could you! Anathema! ANATHEMA!
We do not doubt the holy scripture of the Nodititia Dignitatum, blessed are its worn pages... Big Grin
Best remove that nice design from Britannia's shield (since according to another theory is was surely invented by a Medieval copyist with some free time) and go for a 'safe' Chi-Rho... Big Grin

Personally, I don't give one penny though for such a theory. The ND is a dull piece of administrative listing, which only survived because Charlemagne's administration (or similar Francish civil servants) found it a very handy document to base their own military administration on.
I tend to think such minimalist 'doubt everything' theories are nice to discuss, but have very little scientific worth. :twisted:
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#14
Look for the word 'theory' Smile in my last statement my dear old friend.

I regard it as an interesting suggestion, but I keep an open mind on these things, without letting my brain fall out I hasten to add.

As a general principal - (Not just relevant to the ND)- I often try to put myself in the place of someone 1500 years from now with little evidence to go on what an army looked like except, say, two sets of paintings of units on parade in the barracks and the changing of the guard and Buckingham palace (copied from fading photographs 500 years before).
A little different to the army on campaign.... but this is all thought provoking discussion.
Until better evidence comes to light (it's fantastic when archaeology confirms a visual representation) then I do agree, the ND is the best source of Roman shield designs, (apart from whole examples such as the 3rd C. Dura Europos Tower 19 shield or tantilizing fragments scattered across the Empire)
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#15
One "modern" example of this is the 7th Cavalry on the march to the Little Big Horn. They actually looked very different from what was expected i.e. black hats, dark blue blouses and skyblue pants with yeller stripes .... what most of them had were straw hats, shirts of all colours and reinforced pants of various kinds.

Campaign in Gaul or Germania for a few months and see what happens to soft kit !!!
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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