roman atrocities

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

can anyone here play devil's advocate and change sides against my new position?

I would very much like to see some interesting spinson the argument both for and against.

also, does anyone want to bring other civilizations more into this?

I would enjoy an argument for or against the byzantines. Theodoros, will you argue against the byzantines if I say they were largely justified in their atrocities?

I should like to see all arguments, maybe I will set up a poll on this subject.

[Robert Vermaat]

I bet if smiting weren't diabled I would have a karma of about -30 right now :lol:

Hmmm. I noticed you went up from 0 to 3....

the romans were somewhat justified by not knowing better certainly.

Ok, your 'new' position.

Can we even say it like that? I mean 'the Romans were justified' is too much of an absolute, we can only say 'we judge the Romans as' or something like that. 'Knowing better' implicates we are better and that our values are evolved from theirs.
I vaguely recall we discussed this topic on RAT years ago - would the Romans have used a nuclear bomb?

I somehow can imagine that the Romans would have seen us as senseless killing monsters, who do not abstain from killing enormous numbers of civilians to meet their political goal. They would not have understood that. Their actions were done in their age with their set of values. And so it is with our set of values and our vision of past times. Had all of lived then we would have judged them differently. I have no doubt that in 2000 years, the people who come after us will judge them differently then we are doing now.

So, I deny we can say 'the romans were somewhat justified by not knowing better certainly'.

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

sorry, I stated it badly, what I really mean is:

Although the romans............... certainly the were justified by the values of their day, and in this light they remain so.

[A_Volpe]

There are times where I really question what I'm doing as a "Roman Reenactor", when i reflect on the Roman additudes of warfare and life and purpose, and how they went about doing it.

There are times too where I question myself as having such an interest and fascination in Military history - Is it really "good" or "healthy" to "promote" violence and warfare?...Or is it the insipid PC-World we now live in that is invading my sense of values and morals?

I certainly don't wish to promote violence or the use of violence unto others...I certainly don't like it when someone hits me, so I wish not to impart that onto someone else, esspecially a child.

So there are many times when I wonder if what I'm doing is really worthwhile, or am I just continuing a bad habit?

I think part of what makes me continue to do this and to enjoy it is a sense of detachement, escape, from the world...I get to pretend to be a Legionary for a weekend, and noone will get hurt or killed. So does this make me an actor? does it make me fake? At the end of the day I don't feel as guilty, seeing the way children can figure out that I'm not a *real* Roman, and to see how much they enjoy "playing soldier", and perhaps that's where the answer lies: Playing.

It's similar to Halloween here in the US - for one day a year, you can pretend to be anything/anyone you want, and able to do anything you want (up to a degree) - So I hope both the general public and thier children will figure out when they come to an event or a program, they realize it's an interpretation of what it might have been like, and to have "fun" to escape the world outside for a moment and just take it as it is at face value.

I don't like this idea of being "shallow", or being "fake", that's both a personal moral stance as well as a reenacting credo, I want people to realize that I'm trying to take the actual historical evidence and fact and present it to them as best as we can, and that they take away at least a snippet of that information and truth, and do whichever they want with that information, like it or not. It is what it is, so deal with it. I am NOT going to butter up and sugarcoat history or humanity for you. Do that yourself on your own time and as far away from me as possible.

Perhaps at the end of the day, the "display" of violence and war DOES have a purpose - Perhaps by showing people just how ugly, brutal, and horrific people were then and are now, perhaps kids as well as adults can take those lessons to heart and say "I won't be like this" - maybe we're saving them the experience, maybe we're doing the hard work for them.
(as with above, I'm not going to water it down, or talk down to you, or hold your hand and say it's all right or protect you/shelter you from the truth. The truth hurts. Truth is stranger than fiction. Deal.)

- "Man, those Romans had to carry 80 pounds of [crap] nearly 20 miles?! I can't possibly imagine doing that, and for what? To build a lowsy camp, and then go off an kill someone? What kind of crappy life is that?! And why do you do this on the weekend? Why do you put yourself through this?!"
~ "To experience History first-person...And it's fun!"
- "You're %^#$ Crazy, Dude!"

When I'm in a program and I explain the "blood and guts" of being a Roman and being in war, and seeing people turn green with disgust, maybe I really am educating them in how horrible humans can be....So maybe I'm...Dare I say...Killing 2 birds with one stone here? This is what people had to do all day long back then...I suffer for your education/enjoyment. Thankyou and goodnight. Will they walk away with something new and intriguing? I hope so....And I think this is what keeps me going when I'm thinking too much about the moral implications of war reenacting....That and being able to do something SO unique as to wear armor and pretend to be a soldier for the weekend and noone gets killed.

I am hopeful that most [children] who see my program and learn about warfare, don't nessesarily go home hell-bent on killing or glorifying war...I am hopeful that for the most part they had a great time getting to talk to a "Real Roman" and seeing his really awesome cool shiny armor and sharp pointy sword....In the end, how long does a child "play" war...Until he/she gets tired of it and finds something else, correct? I think we give people less credit to distern what is proper than we should.

I find it such an incredible contrast with my personality and interests. I LOVE being a history and miliary geek, but I really truly hate war and extreme violence. I find it pointless and horrific...But then we ARE humans, and perhaps we are the most horrific creatures on the planet, yet we are still PART of it all. In the greater scheme of things, we are just another kind of animal trying to survive day to day. That perhaps is so more raw and nessesary for ancient peoples....And...Where would we be in terms of cultures, education, technology and civilization - for better or for worse - without war? Even the Romans as an example - thier influence is still felt today. Very interesting parallels, and incredible technology for so-called "primitive" people...Romans, like everyone else, has different answers to the same problems.

Compared to our modern era, I would have to say Romans were not nessesarily going to war and killing people because their gods or leaders demanded it, or that it was a test of thier faith...Away from the 'politics' - They praised to thier gods to help ensure they survived and were successful in that bloody task...I think more times than not you'll find evidence of soldiers praying that the war ends quickly, with little bloodshed and that they get back home to thier families ASAP....I don't recall finding evidence of soldiers who beg/enjoy to slaughter people, who praise for bloodlust...Perhaps only as stated above to just get the "job" done as quickly as possible....The adage that "Noone Knows Peace Like A Soldier", I believe has always rang true for any culture in history...I don't think all Roman soldiers were in the army so they could go kill people (and like it). It was a job, they were getting paid, and they developed a sense of purpose. If they did really well, they go to make good money and eventually retired with a really nice pension (and never had to fight again). In the meantime they could scrounge up money and send it to family to get them through. How much time do Legionaries spend actually fighting in battle compared to twiddling thier thumbs all day?

Compare this to Hitler - "You must kill off these people I don't like because I don't like them, and because I said so, Because I'm so Awesome and Pure and so much better than you"....How about Stalin? "I don't Like You. You go to Siberia and Die"....How about Mao? "Too many people...People are annoying...People want my power. Killing people gets rid of people."

All this being said, when we look back at the atrocities, say such as with Hitler...Do we take those lessons and try not to repeat them? Or do we ignore them? Or do we secretly hide them and allow them to come back in a different form?
I think the key here is to take the lessons of the past and apply them to the present, so that the future, we hope, won't repeat that past....So yes, the Romans could be a horrific, violent, opressive people, but they also gave us technologies and culture we continue to use and be amazed at today....I guess it all depends on What you portray, how much you emphasize, and extrapilate the real lessons of it all. Yes, the Romans could really be disgusting, but it wasn't disgusting for them, it was Life. It was being a Roman....What do you take away from it? What do you learn from it....Maybe that's what we have to let everybody else figure out for themselves.

One more thing: After a swordplay demonstration, a little boy came up and was asking about the swords we were using. He wanted to know why the sword was made of metal? And why we were using swords to begin with - why were we trying to hurt each other? It was a profound moment, and even more difficult to explain, to a child who had little comprehension of violence....very profound.

[hoplite14gr]

Well not ALL Romans were nasty just as the people of ANY population group are ALL nasty.

Also there were people that had civilization when Rome was just a collection of pigstalls. Well if Romans did not originate at least thet preseved for their benefit but the their attempts were beneficial in the sence that these things reached our time.

Also in my opinion feudalism in Europ was not a Mediaval insttution but a Roman institution (LATIFUNDIA). In a since roman heritage (the empire) made the spread of the negative aspects of dark ages easier the same way it eased the positive things.

I dont think we are anydifferent from the Romans. Individuals or groups do atrocities because they can or because they think they can get away with it. I mean there are two types of atrocites. Those sent to justice (usually the defeated) and those that conciderd collateral damage (the victors).
If we want to consider ouselves better than the Romans we must strive to avoid their mistakes and preserve all the positive things the had.
We dont seem to do well in this I think.

Kind regards

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

that's it, that's what I was aiming at with starting this conversation--every form of violence is horrible, no matter when/ where it happens,m for whatever reason.

why is there still a need for someone like me? a medical reserve in a state military establishment? because people will try to take the lives of others for no real reason, some religion, some stupid ideal of purity, greed, the list doesn't end.

read this: http://www.angelfire.com/wa/warpoetry/Crusader.html

it will be most profound for people in the U.S.

think about it the next time you vote........

[Robert Vermaat]

One more thing: After a swordplay demonstration, a little boy came up and was asking about the swords we were using. He wanted to know why the sword was made of metal? And why we were using swords to begin with - why were we trying to hurt each other? It was a profound moment, and even more difficult to explain, to a child who had little comprehension of violence....very profound.

Which begs the question.. how did you explain it?

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

who systematically killed of, or forcefully assimilated millions of people, making money off the act, lulling the people with speeches and gifts, and did this successfully?

......

Any drug cartel in South America in Mexico? Any extremist group in the Middle East who might get a nuc? Edit: (I got banned from RAT for 30 days to objecting to what I thought was censorship. I was actually banned for about 340 days. This was the previous RAT administration. I think any repression of academic expression is wrong. So I think you have freedom to say what you want. This means I think I do also.

When I got back from Viet-Nam as a combat medic, (both tours) I had a lot of people ask me what I saw. I did so even it was not what people wanted to hear. Mainly, that I never personally saw an American soldier commit a war crime. I have personal knowledge of several massacres committed by the NVA, and what would later be known as the Khmer Rouge. I did not see anything to back up what the popular political agenda was, and said so. If I had a nickle for every time I heard about Mai-Lie, and $10000 for every time I heard about the NVA massacres at Hue, I would get rich quicker on nickles. In one instance, one of your rude fellow countrymen and a student from sweden started screaming at me that I was a liar and the Swedish student knew so because he read different in Pravda. He then physically struck me. This is something I will always associate with England and Sweden. Should I judge all by those two? No. But I will always remember the incident.

RAT got away from debating modern political issues because of the rancor it started. I do not want to start anything, but on your last comment about what Americans should read or believe, in our next election... I think you tread on thin ice. Maybe Americans should simply quit caring about what the world thinks about us and we should do as we please. If we are so bad, and hated so much, then we maybe we should quit worrying about anybody but ourselves. I say this because of what I have seen and lived, and I hope none of you ever have to do so yourselves. I am reluctant to get into this issue, because of my previous expierinces with those who didn't understand what an eye witness is.

If anyone takes exception to what I say, PM me. I dont want RAT to slide back into a soap box. There are other forums for that.

Ralph Izard

[tlclark]

It's interesting that most of what we know about Roman atrocities is communicated to us by the Romans themselves

A VERY important point! Aside from the Jews and the Greeks, there are very few groups that are as candid as the Romans, even about their own faults!

I think that speaks very well for them. The Egyptians undoubtedly had as many atrocities, but the record has been cooked.

Speaking of cooking... you're right...what british eat could hardly be called 'cooking'.



Travis :wink:

[Robert Vermaat]

I just sent a PM to both John as well as Ralph and I suggest that that we leave modern politcs alone, lest the wrath of Jupiter comes down on all our heads.

Be civil folks and stay away from politics!! And if you must, as we did so nicely in this discussion, tie it to the topic!

[tlclark]

I would enjoy an argument for or against the byzantines. Theodoros, will you argue against the byzantines if I say they were largely justified in their atrocities?

Sure, I'll take this on.

Personally, most of the so-called "atrocities" that Byzantines enact then enact against themselves. Especially during Commenian/macedonian period.

I think the biggest most difficult thing to defend is the treatment of Byzantines against other Christians.

I love the life of Athanasius for just this reason.

And then there's the whole iconoclasm thing. A good book on violence in general is Timothy Gregories "Vox Populi"

Honestly, aside from the reigns of Nero, Decius and Diocletian, if you gave me a choice of being a Christian during the Byzantine era or the Roman, I'd pick the Roman era.

What Christians do to fellow Christians is just abominable.

Aside from the Justinian war against the Ostrogothic Arians, which was largely political, but justified on the grounds of heresy, it's hard to find something that raises to the level of the nazis.

Travis

[Tarbicus]

There are times where I really question what I'm doing as a "Roman Reenactor", when i reflect on the Roman additudes of warfare and life and purpose, and how they went about doing it.

There are times too where I question myself as having such an interest and fascination in Military history - Is it really "good" or "healthy" to "promote" violence and warfare?...Or is it the insipid PC-World we now live in that is invading my sense of values and morals?

I certainly don't wish to promote violence or the use of violence unto others...I certainly don't like it when someone hits me, so I wish not to impart that onto someone else, esspecially a child.

So there are many times when I wonder if what I'm doing is really worthwhile, or am I just continuing a bad habit?

Don't.

When I get 'that' quizzical look ("humour him") when I sometimes talk about this subject we all have an interest in, and I don't even do the full deed, I just remind myself that many of the very same bemused people, men in particular, do boxing, karate, kickboxing, judo, ju-jitsu, etc.

Am I likely to ever use a gladius in anger? [size=150:1byfyawm]Big nope[/size]. You're just interested in one part of the biography of mankind, and an often unused description for what you're doing is "you're being scholarly".

Of course, it'd be interesting to see how a scutum did ... :wink:

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

I just recieved a PM from John Shook. I misinterpreted his position and I offer to him and RAT an apology for my error. John's post was not anti-American but anti-war, for which there is a difference.

Sincerely

Gaius Decius Aqilius
(Ralph Izard)

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

I didn't fill in my location on my profile, so nobody would have known. I live in Detroit michigan, to be anti-american would be anti-myself, seems we had a misunderstanding.

Anti-war may still be political, so it is still on the line.
apology is also mine.

flattered that you thought I was British though :lol:

[Praefectusclassis]

Thanks for resolving the situation in a civilized manner gents! Compliments & karma added!