Alexander Mosaic from Pompeii

[Robert Vermaat]

Another question: Nathan gave a reference to Warry's 'Warfare in the Ancient World'. The cover shows what looks like a repainting of the famous Alexander mosaic from Pompeii. Does anybody here have a larger depiction of this repainting or an Internet reference?

Ok, how about this one?
classics.unc.edu/courses/clar049/AlexMos.jpg
Better: www.unisa.ac.za/contents/faculties/humanities/classical/images/15.jpg

Another, a detail: www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/classics/modules/cx254/pompeianhouses/023.jpg
From Jona's Livius.org: www.livius.org/a/1/iran/alexander_mosaic.jpg
Also nice: faculty.cva.edu/Stout/Roman/AlexanderMosaic1.jpg

This is a nice website, with many detail pictures: Alexander and Darius at the Battle of Issus

[Jeroen Pelgrom]

Uwe,

at this site you can find some pictures of the mosaic:
sights.seindal.dk

and this site:
classics.unc.edu
(scroll down to "alexander mosaic in pompeii")

[Praefectusclassis]

I've got pics of the real thing from the museum of Naples, hi-res too. Need them Uwe?

[Praefectusclassis]

Ok. Here goes. Remember, click the thumbnails for a full sized view!

[Uwe Bahr]

Robert, Jeroen , Gioi and Jasper !!!

D D D D D

in the other thread I started friday afternoon a little question about the color repainting on John Warry's "Warfare in Ancient times" hoping for some help and what did I get? Even an own topic about the object I asked for and so very much pictoral material that I'll need time to process it all.

As I was off-line on saturday I could not react on all Your friendlinesses - so much references and answers to my question and I could not react at once. Sorry for that! When I checked this topic today I got really overwhelmed. Thank You all so much.

This shows what an alive and lively (and lovely) forum RAT is !!!

And it shows me also, what an interesting object the Alexander mosaic is. Up to now, it had not been really discussed at this forum (when my search-results are correct) and it seems to be not only my pet-depiction of the ancients...

So be prepared, I will want to discuss many aspects of the mosaic in the future with You, questions like these:

- what is shown (Issos, Gaugamela, a mixture of different battles)
- a real event during a battle (Oxyartes ?)
- questions about the equipment including the chariot (two axles for the four horses as shown at the Oxus treasure or only one)
- stylistic questions (did You see the mysterious tree, whose inclination and branches reflect Dareios' pose?)
- miscellaneous, did You know that the mosaic was the very last thing that caught the interest of famous German poet Goethe in the last days of his life?

In the meantime I ordered 'Apelles - The Alexander Mosaic' from Paolo Moreno. As far as I knew up to now, was it not known who the original painter of the picture was, that has been reproduced by the mosaic and may-be by many many others depictions (paints, mosaics) - we will see. I will provide You with 2 further reflections to the original painting in ancient art, that ape the mosaic or its model at least in parts.

But it is almost impossible to discuss about all aspects of the mosaic in the same time - the mosaic would deserve an own sub-forum with different topics, I am afraid.

Greets to all and thanks again for Your interest
Uwe

[Uwe Bahr]

Gioi,

thank You especially for the many new pictures about Dareios and the mosaic itself. I was very delighted about the reconstructions with the completions of the mosaic where it has defects. I think it's time to make some scans that You don't have yet and send them to You, but I will need some time, sorry.

Uwe

[hoplite14gr]

Might had his hair tied up as it was customary at the time.
Uncovered head is artistic licence though.
He could have used Thracian, Chalicidic, Beotian or even late-corinthian helmet in reality. and his neck would be covered with a scales "skarf" as the one found in the grave of Philip.
He definitly changed his helmet because it was repotred brocken in Granikos when Kleitos saved from certain death.
Kind regards

[Uwe Bahr]

Avete omnes,

Gioi - thank You again, this time for the line drawing of the chariot. In Bernard Andreae "Das Alexandermosaik" I read that Darius' chariot from the mosaic had only one pole with two pole-horses and two horses on the very left and very right side. The outer ones would be fixed with the chariot-box directly. A closer look on the mosaic seems to prove this theory:

[url:2wjz0vho]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/uwe-bahr/Tafel14.jpg[/url]

So - in changing the above line drawing - the horses would have been fixed like this:



My question to all of You is, do You think that this reconstruction could be possible, as the mosaic seems to show it? I have to admit that I know only examples with two poles like the famous golden piece from the Oxus treasure (scroll down a little bit):

[url:2wjz0vho]http://perso.wanadoo.fr/spqr/takht_sangin.htm[/url]

In my opinion the one-pole version could be an advantage if You want to make a turn, as the driver of Darius' chariot obviously is just doing to the right - look at the position and direction of the two outer horses. They are clearly moving more to the right than the two inner horses which are rigidly fixed to the pole.

Greets - Uwe

[Arthes]

Greetings,
you know something occured to me looking at those shots from Naples...the fact that the Persians are still fairly intact, but Alex and his men are not. Only Alex's and Bucephalus's head are to be seen clearly, which is strange.
I wonder if this was damage from Vesuvius or something else?
regards
Arthes

[Arthes]

Greetings Comerus,

I always been curious of what appears to be a long haired pony tail on Alex back tie up in white band, it cant come from Persian horses, but sadly non of macedonian horses are complete or visible, to see their tails, but also it cant be because it is too high, also in that white part from Alex back is incomplete, & seems to not be linked to anyone else but Alex? Alex front has a great space with no one else...But also has a diferent color from Alex hair....What do you think or can interprete this guys?

There is some drawings on here (although Alex looks awful in the painting ) which shows it a little more clearly.....[url:3cs8azbp]http://www.classics.cam.ac.uk/Everyone/Pompeii/housefaun.html[/url] It may be an adornment of the horses mane, just behind him?.
Yes, if you look just behind the raised arm of the guy in mustard outfit, in front of Bucephalus, you can see a couple of what look like the same on the horses heads. In fact, look at the head of the poor horse underneath the guy.
regards
Arthes

[Uwe Bahr]

Hi Arthes, Gioi and Stefanos,

I agree with Arthes that the so called tail does not belong to Alexander but must be from a (Macedonian?) horse behind him. There are examples of completer heads of horses on the mosaic, look at the two horse heads immediately above the left arm of the poor Persian that is perforated by Alexander:

[url:q9giicf3]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/uwe-bahr/Tafel06.jpg[/url]

BTW, nice picture Gioi, You as Alexander

Greets - Uwe

[Arthes]

Greetings Uwe,

Hi Arthes, Gioi and Stefanos,

I agree with Arthes that the so called tail does not belong to Alexander but must be from a (Macedonian?) horse behind him. There are examples of completer heads of horses on the mosaic, look at the two horse heads immediately above the left arm of the poor Persian that is perforated by Alexander:

[url:1dalvwou]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/uwe-bahr/Tafel06.jpg[/url]

BTW, nice picture Gioi, You as Alexander

Greets - Uwe

I must have just been editing my post as you typed this....I felt sorry for the horse....
Have you noticed the helm just in front of Darius's outstretched hand, you can only see it clearly in the painting.....!!!
regards
Arthes

[hoplite14gr]

Thanks Cristy I understood also Gioi post wrong it seems

Gioi, Philip died before Alex go to Asia so this helmet is not related to Alex.
Also all corinthian helmets of the time must had ear openings like the chalkidic ones. Example exists in Mannings page.

Uve, extra horse was put by Patroklos in Achiles chariot - normaly for two horses. Your interpetation of extr horse might be correct then.

Kind regards

[Uwe Bahr]

Arthes,

which helmet do You mean, the one in background with the white horse hair crest or the unclear one with the 'funny' face. This whole middle of the mosaic is unclear, immediately before the funny helmeted face is a the forehead of a horse that also has not been executed very well and You see the back of a horse fallen head over that appears somehow without connection to the rest of the scene and even the shank of the sarissa that ends just before the lonely tree is not continued correctly in the middle of the mosaic.

There are several theories what may have happened here. For example that the mosaic maker's team started from both sides and did not meet in the middle correctly and finished the mosaic only unsatisfying. One theory is that the mosaic is assumed to have been only one of many copies of an original wall painting that has been distributed in the whole Roman or Hellenistic world.

Greets - Uwe

[Arthes]

Greetings,

Arthes,

which helmet do You mean, the one in background with the white horse hair crest or the unclear one with the 'funny' face. This whole middle of the mosaic is unclear, immediately before the funny helmeted face is a the forehead of a horse that also has not been executed very well and You see the back of a horse fallen head over that appears somehow without connection to the rest of the scene and even the shank of the sarissa that ends just before the lonely tree is not continued correctly in the middle of the mosaic.

There are several theories what may have happened here. For example that the mosaic maker's team started from both sides and did not meet in the middle correctly and finished the mosaic only unsatisfying. One theory is that the mosaic is assumed to have been only one of many copies of an original wall painting that has been distributed in the whole Roman or Hellenistic world.
Greets - Uwe

the one with the horse hair crest....I see what you mean about the partial horse face....maybe the 'funny face' who looks as though he is wearing a Boetian helm, is leaning over its' head?
I just noticed Darius's chariot driver's hand knocking a spear out of the way too..... :roll:
They think this was commissioned by Cassandros - before or after he did away with all of Alexander's descendants I wonder :evil:
regards
Arthes
regards
Arthes