The Legate\'s Daughter by Wallace Breem

[Optio equitum]

Well, I just want all of you to know....my book budget for 2006 is already shot, thanks to all these recommendations! Just kidding, I will be prowling every used bookstore for 100 miles for quite a while to find some of these..Thanks all.

And a few I have to throw out there: The Ten Thousand, concerning Xenophon and his troops, Gods and Legions, about Julian the Apostate, and a third about Mithridates the Great called The Last King. There is a new one, the Sword of Attila, out in hardcover. All good Historical Fiction, and interesting angles on old tales.

Edit: The author might help :oops: Michael Curtis Ford

[Graham Sumner]

Spedius wrote:

Graham, I havn't seen the old silent version of Ben Hur, was it good? How about "Demetrius and the Gladiators", the sequel to "The Robe"? Does that also feature in your list of favourite films? I have both on video.

Indeed it does. I also like the Roman uniforms in 'The Robe' which have clearly been based on a painting by Amedee Forestier in his book 'The Roman Soldier' published in the 1920's. Hollywood does occasionaly do its research. The silent version of Ben Hur is very spectacular and includes early use of colour in the scenes were Christ appears. I think it is available on DVD.

Some of the very old silent epics filmed in black and white almost make you feel they were made during the Roman period. In the case of Ben-Hur with it's lavish sets and costumes and full scale warships it is almost superior to the later version. Even though models were used in the circus sequence for the upper tiers of the crowd that set too is perhaps more convincing than the later version. There are also tales about the chariot race and naval battle which would make your hair stand on end and suffice to say would certainly not be allowed today or repeated again. So I would say the film is certainly worth seeing if you get the chance.

Graham.

[Niedel]

I second the silent version of Ben Hur. I think it is included with the newer special release of Wyler's 1959 Ben Hur on DVD, if I'm not wrong. Another Roman silent film that's still impressive, in my opinion, is Cabiria. The 1920s version of Quo Vadis (Emil Jannings as Nero) is amazing, too, as well as the 1920s version of Last Days in Pompeii. The sheer size of it all is amazing, and all sans CGI, matte paintings or many of the other special effects help later filmmakers used.
I have also read the Michael Curtis Ford books and liked them. It's interesting to compare "Gods and Legions" with Gore Vidal's "Julian".

Another older book I really enjoyed reading that I haven't seen on this thread is "The Conspiracy", by John Hersey. The whole book is an exchange of letters between Tigellinus and some of his secret police agents "uncovering" the "Seneca conspiracy" during Nero's reign. It's almost funny how paranoid Tigellinus and his agents are, reflects on more modern times' secret services and "intelligence gathering" as well.
Love this thread!

[Graham Sumner]

Hello Niedel (Christoph)

The sheer size of it all is amazing, and all sans CGI, matte paintings or many of the other special effects help later filmmakers used.

I would agree with that. I have yet to see any CGI used to create vast amounts of people or armies really succesfully, or is that heretical to say so. About the best so far in my opinion are the crowds in the arena in Gladiator or the British troops in the 'Patriot'.

The arrival of Commodus into Rome in 'Gladiator' pales into insignificance compared with the same scene in 'The Fall of the Roman Empire'. I was also watching 'Helen of Troy' the other night and thought how impressive the Greek army consisting of real extras looked in comparison with the effects created in 'Troy'! I generally think they go to overboard when trying to create the look of real armies.

The arrival of the legions in 'Spartacus' still sends shivers up my spine even though it later becomes obvious that the second wave is simply the first wave repeated! (also helps if the extras are real soldiers in this case Spanish troops)

Graham.

[Theodosius the Great]

Hi Graham,

I have yet to see any CGI used to create vast amounts of people or armies really succesfully

They are getting better, but I agree that there's no substitute for the real thing. The CGI soldiers in Lord of the Rings (the 1st one) openning scene looked better, IMO.

The arrival of Commodus into Rome in 'Gladiator' pales into insignificance compared with the same scene in 'The Fall of the Roman Empire'.

So true. So many things went right with FOTRE, but too many went wrong

I was also watching 'Helen of Troy'

The 1950's version or the newer TV movie ?

The arrival of the legions in 'Spartacus' still sends shivers up my spine

Ahh, the best film that shows them, IMO. The formations were correct.

it later becomes obvious that the second wave is simply the first wave repeated!

I suspected that ! But I didn't know if special effects were that sophisticated yet :roll: That's ok, it's still the best one 8)

[Graham Sumner]

Hi Theodosius (Jaime)

So many things went right with FOTRE, but too many went wrong

Not too many in my opinion but chiefly with the script if anything!

I suspected that ! But I didn't know if special effects were that sophisticated yet

If you look they become a different colour but the giveaway is that in the souvenir film booklet there is a photograph which only shows the first wave!

The 1950's version or the newer TV movie ?

The 1950's version, I have yet to see the TV movie. Have you, if so is it worthwhile viewing it?


Niedel mentioned earlier versions of 'Quo Vadis' and 'The Last days of Pompeii'. Does anyone remember the 1980's TV version of the latter? Peter Connolly was an ad-visor but walked out halfway through. Nevertheless the Gladiator scenes were actually quite good there was someone playing a water organ in the background as well as vendors selling food. The arena wall was also decorated with wall paintings.

'Quo Vadis' has been made many times but the recent Polish version is definitely worth seeing. There was also another TV version in the 1980's with Anthony Quinn's son in the role of Marcus Vinicius.

Back in the 80's there was also a sequel to 'Jesus of Nazareth' called 'AD'. Although some equipment was used from the earlier production a lot of new kit was made for the series including auxiliaries with hair embossed helmets, legionaries wearing coolus helmets and even some with leather lorica segmentata based on the figurine in the British Museum! The fortifications around Caligula's invasion base were copied from those at Alesia and the Praetorians had helmets decorated with the visor illustrated in Robinson's book. Someone must have really done their homework and where did all that kit disappear to?

Graham.


Graham.

[Niedel]

Niedel mentioned earlier versions of 'Quo Vadis' and 'The Last days of Pompeii'. Does anyone remember the 1980's TV version of the latter? Peter Connolly was an advisor but walked out halfway through. Nevertheless the Gladiator scenes were actually quite good there was someone playing a water organ in the background as well as vendors selling food. The arena wall was also decorated with wall paintings.

Yes, I remember that one. Franco Nero (Django) was the bad guy. I do remember that the arena scenes were quite good, but the rest was not so great, IIRC.

'Quo Vadis' has been made many times but the recent Polish version is definately worth seeing. There was also another TV version in the 1980's with Anthony Quinn's son in the role of Marcus Vinicius.

Saw the Polish version and liked it. Best legionary gear seen yet on film. Some of the actors are also really good, and the arena scenes are spectacular and scary (I still don't know how they pulled the lion thing off, you really see people running in full speed and being knocked over by lions). The burning of Rome was a little disappointing, but I read somewhere that the first set had burned down or something and they didn't have much money left. The series from the 80s was disappointing, although Klaus Maria Brandauer was sort of interesting as Nero.

Back in the 80's there was also a sequel to 'Jesus of Nazareth' called 'AD'. Although some equipment was used from the earlier production a lot of new kit was made for the series including auxiliaries with hair embossed helmets, legionaries wearing coolus helmets and even some with leather lorica segmentata based on the figurine in the British Museum! The fortifications around Caligula's invasion base were copied from those at Alesia and the Praetorians had helmets decorated with the visor illustrated in Robinson's book. Someone must have really done their homework and where did all that kit dissapear too?

I saw AD as well back then. Weirdly enough, the full version is not available on DVD and never was on video either, if I remember correctly, only a "sanitized" version that's about 2 hours shorter and includes all the christian stuff, but less of the Roman (exactly what we here like, right ;-) )
I remember the Caligula beach scene being spectacular, and the arena scenes weren't too shabby either. I remember it being a weird show, sort of Acts of the Apostles meets I Claudius, it seemed like they couldn't really decide whether to do a religious film or an I Claudius on steroids. But I wouldn't mind having the full version of this on DVD. BTW, some of that gear DID show up in later TV movies, mostly religious ones like "Jesus", but also in "Cleopatra" and "Caesar", some still even shows up in the Italian "Emperor" series (Augustus, Nero so far). It's all in Cinecitta somewhere...

BTW, Fall of the Roman Empire is still my favorite Roman epic. While the Livius and Lucilla love story sucks, there are many great parts, the script is pretty intelligent, the costumes and sets outstanding and I just like the whole atmosphere, Romans in the snow etc. It conveys this sense of the end of an era, which it should, of course. And I still saw it on the big screen in my (rather provincial) home town theatre in Germany, where they were still playing stuff like this in the 70s and 80s from time to time.

[Graham Sumner]

Hello Niedel

Saw the Polish version and liked it. Best legionary gear seen yet on film. Some of the actors are also really good, and the arena scenes are spectacular and scary (I still don't know how they pulled the lion thing off, you really see people running in full speed and being knocked over by lions).

As it always appears to be a woman who is being dragged down by a lion my guess is she was the stunt woman?

Yes I think the leather lorica from 'AD', is the same type as the one used by the centurion in QUO VADIS. Some of The FOTRE gear also still turns up now and then, There was a recent documentary about the life of a Gladiator on the BBC and their helmets etc were a mixture of stuff from either this film or AD.

Yes the burning of Rome looked poor in Quo Vadis most of the buildings appeared wooden. However I agree the acting was quite good especially from the character who informs on the Christians. Also did you spot the complete set of accurate horse trappings and saddle on the horse ridden by Petronius?

BTW, Fall of the Roman Empire is still my favorite Roman epic. While the Livius and Lucilla love story sucks, there are many great parts, the script is pretty intelligent, the costumes and sets outstanding and I just like the whole atmosphere, Romans in the snow etc. It conveys this sense of the end of an era, which it should, of course.

I agree totally and you only have to look at some of my artwork to see the influences. I very often paint Roman forts etc.. in the snow!

Graham.

[Theodosius the Great]

Quote:
So many things went right with FOTRE, but too many went wrong


Not too many in my opinion but chiefly with the script if anything!

You're right. But I suppose I mean in the sense that too many things went wrong for the movie to be a hit. It's worth getting, IMO, if they ever put it on DVD. (Yes, I know there's an Asian bootleg available)

If you look they become a different colour but the giveaway is that in the souvenir film booklet there is a photograph which only shows the first wave!

Really ?! I'll check it out in a minute.

The 1950's version, I have yet to see the TV movie. Have you, if so is it worthwhile viewing it?

Oh, I like that version too. And, yes, I have seen the TV movie. Uhh, it depends I guess, I mean if you think being mythologically accurate is important then you should see it. "Troy" is the most inaccurate version I've seen but my favorite none-the-less :wink: .

"Helen of Troy" (TV) has a lot of gods in it and the battle scenes aren't too bad. The Trojan helmets are interesting - they feature horse tails. The story is centered around Paris like the original version. We get to see Agamemnon sacraficing his daugter before sailing to Troy and later we see him getting murdered by his wife in his own pool.

Sure, I'd say it's worth sampling at least.

'Quo Vadis' has been made many times but the recent Polish version is definitely worth seeing.

I want to see it, but last time I checked it isn't on DVD yet (at least with English subtitles)

Back in the 80's there was also a sequel to 'Jesus of Nazareth' called 'AD'.

Yes, I have it on VHS. It's looks like they also modeled the Praetorians off of the Louvre relief - particularly the one wearing just the tunic.

As Christoph says, the scene with Caligula on the beach with the army is great. I think Vortigern told me once that scene was filmed in Holland.

[Theodosius the Great]

Weirdly enough, the full version is not available on DVD and never was on video either, if I remember correctly, only a "sanitized" version that's about 2 hours shorter

You're wrong, Christoph. I got the full version on VHS about 3 or 4 years ago. I have the box set with 4 or 5 tapes. I don't recall anything obscene though.

I know what you're talking about though because they did the same thing with "Masada". There's a two hour version where most of Rome is cut out. Then there's the full version in a boxed set (which I also have :wink: )

[Niedel]

I also have the boxed set of "Masada" and I love it, although even that seems to be missing something (I remember a topless scene by Barbara Carrera in the European movie theatre version which is sadly missing in the U.S. VCR box set I have). I stand corrected on the AD VHS version, but the DVD is still not out, if I'm not wrong. I don't think the shorter version that was out was edited due to "obscenity" but just to shorten the Roman stuff and have more of the christian/apostle elements in the story for the religious video market.

BTW, FOTRE is out on DVD in Europe, if you have a multiregional DVD player, which I recommend anyway, it's no problem, the German DVD for example includes the German dubbed version as well as the original English (and is longer than any other version ever released before, Omar Sharif's role is bigger, for example).

Also, I have the DVD of the Polish Quo Vadis and it has English subtitles. I ordered it a while ago from a Polish movie importer in Canada. I remember it took forever to get here (U.S.), but it sure is a neat film. I will search a little and try to find you a link. And yes, I noticed the horse trappings, and Vinicius' segmentata early in the film sure looks nice, too.

[Theodosius the Great]

(I remember a topless scene by Barbara Carrera in the European movie theatre version which is sadly missing in the U.S. VCR box set I have).

That scene is in the cut, 2-hour version. You can buy that one too if it's that important :wink: . I rented it and was unaware at the time that it was a butchered version :x . Much later I discovered that there was a 4 hour version from a catalog I got in the mail. What you and I have is the aired version, so of course they edited out the topless scene.

Earlier about "AD" :

sort of Acts of the Apostles meets I Claudius, it seemed like they couldn't really decide whether to do a religious film or an I Claudius on steroids.

Well, it all converged at the end. I liked the attempt to combine all the religious and secular history of the time into one film. But, overall, I don't think it's a good series. The best mini-series for me is "I Claudius".

I don't think the shorter version that was out was edited due to "obscenity"

As I said, they did it with "Masada" so that's why I suspected that was the reason. Although, that would've surprised me because it was a religious film - that's why it's called "AD".

BTW, FOTRE is out on DVD in Europe, if you have a multiregional DVD player, which I recommend anyway

I'll only buy the official version. When it isn't, the quality tends to suck. So where's the advantage in getting the DVD in the first place ? I don't know if this European one is official or not though.

New "Quo Vadis" film :

I will search a little and try to find you a link.

Oh, thank you, Christoph

[Theodosius the Great]

The Legate's Daughter ? Sounds like a take off of that movie "The General's Daughter" :wink:

[Spedius]

Ave

Wonderful thread, whilst I was asleep you guys have been busy.

I have this book "Spectacular - The Story of Epic Films" Hamlyn 1974, ISBN 0-600-38149-8. Author John Cary, edited by John Cobal. It's a big book, 17.5" x 12", with 160 pages packed with stills, posters and details of the epics from "The Adventures of Robin Hood (1934) to Zulu (1963).

For example:

Ben-Hur 1925
USA MGM
Ramon Novarro (Ben-Hur) Francis S. Bushman (Messala) etc.
Re-issued with sound effects. May 1931.
BO $4,000,000

A search for this book via http://used.addall.com/ brought up 67 results.

IMHO in FOTRE Stephen Boyd , with his slightly crazy laugh, was miscast as Livius he would have made a far better Commodus. If you agree, who do you think should have been cast in his place, Charlton Heston?

Vale

M. Spedius Corbulo

[Graham Sumner]

I have this book "Spectacular - The Story of Epic Films" Hamlyn 1974, ISBN 0-600-38149-8. Author John Cary, edited by John Cobal. It's a big book, 17.5" x 12", with 160 pages packed with stills, posters and details of the epics from "The Adventures of Robin Hood (1934) to Zulu (1963).

Hi Spedius.

I have had that book too for many years plus 'The Stories Behind The Scenes Of The Great Film Epics', M.Munn. 1982, 'The Ancient World in the Cinema', J. Solomon.1978 and 'The Epic Film', D. Elley, 1984. There is also another book worth looking out for by George Macdonald Fraser of Flashman fame called 'Hollywoods History of the World', I think. The Solomon book is quite an in depth study but outdated in terms of it's references to Roman equipment etc... I would certainly like to work on an updated version of a book like that but I remember from working on the Brassey's book that obtaining photographs and getting permission to use them was horrendous in terms of cost.

Marcus Junkelmann has also published a book featuring a comparison of epic films including 'FOTRE' and 'Gladiator' in German. There is also a booklet on the making of 'Gladiator' itself explaining all about the tons of research that went into the production! :wink:

Charlton Heston was considered for the Role of Livius by the Producer Samuel Bronston who had made 'El Cid'. That film had been a big success so in true Hollywood tradition they wanted to team Heston and Loren together again. However Heston thought quite correctly that the role of Livius was quite poor and turned it down. Nevertheless he felt obliged to work with Bronston again and did '55 Day's at Peking' instead! Heston's biography 'In the Arena' is also a fascinating read too if you are interested in the ins and outs of epic film making.

As FOTRE is my favorite epic I was interested to hear that the German DVD version has extra scenes! Is that true?

I have a collection of stills and posters including one scene from 'The Antagonists', the shortened cinema release version of Masada which clearly shows that the siege ramp only goes about 20 feet!

Graham.