late roman equipment

[Graham Sumner]

Hello Travis

I have just posted a picture of a tunic, see my earlier post above. My friend Raffaele was always critical of the way I painted sleeves on my Late Roman soldiers probably because I was using some re-enactors as models! Like you he follows the artistic sources while I tend to use the archaeological sources and my experience in re-enactment. We meet in the middle, sometimes!

Even so I thought the sleeves in my drawings were a lot tighter fitting than many other modern versions I have seen and certainly some which are in this thread and elsewhere on RAT. If you have copies of Roman Military Clothing 2 and 3 you will notice that I have drawn the sleeves a lot closer around the wrist in volume 3 which Raffaele wrote.

He advised me to study the garments worn by Priests especially those in the Orthodox church which will obviously be of interest to you. They do not seem to have problems bending their arms but possibly they are using finer material than most modern re-enactors tend to do.

Best wishes

Graham

[tlclark]

He advised me to study the garments worn by Priests especially those in the Orthodox church which will obviously be of interest to you. They do not seem to have problems bending their arms but possibly they are using finer material than most modern re-enactors tend to do.

Thanks,

I have 3, and it's fantastic BTW.

It's true, the byzantine examples are all nearly unamimous and show very tight fitting tunics. In many cases the muscles of the forearm are clearly delineated, suggesting VERY tight sleeves. Wool might have more stretch, but I can't see how they could have been so tight, especially at the wrist. Likewise, we have a lot more tunics from the 5th-7th C. and nearly all have parallel sleeves.

It's a real conundrum.

Aitor suggested perhaps that the sleeves were woven parallel, but sewn to be tapered, but I know of no evidence that such is the case.

I am going to make cuffs with splits so that I can get really tight cuffs, but I think my next tunic will have to be wool instead of linen, to allow more stretch.

Thanks.

[aitor iriarte]

Graham,
If you notice it, the splayed paterns of 'our' respective tunics are almost exactly the same. The differences start with he way they are stitched to close the garment (BTW, it seems that my group has been finally invited to Tarragona this year. We'll be at Centcelles again...)

Travis,
Yes, I told you some time ago that you only need to stitch those wide sleeves in an oblique fashion (look at the diagrams of the Reepsholt tunic that I've posted) to get the narrow cuffs!

Aitor

[tlclark]

From a re-enacting perspective how do people deal with sewing.

I put an inter-facing on my neckline, which seemed absolutely necessary to make it lay right.

Oh heck. Here's a pic.

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/pictures/tunic1.jpg

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/pictures/tunic2.jpg

It's medium weight linen and slightly bell-shaped like some depictions. It's all rolled edge seams with an overhand whip stitch - hand sewn

The sleeves originally were much tighter.

The cuffs/clavi/segmentae are being added separately and are not yet attached.

As you can see it's quite narrow because I am going for a 6th -7th C. impression and the clothes get increasingly more tailored by the Byzantine period.

this second pic is inside out so you can see the interfacing.

I tried it without it and it was just impossible to get it to lay flat or right.

This is an old costumer's trick

(my mother in addition to being a school teacher, homemaker, etc, did theatrical costuming)

Does anyone else do this. It's invisible from the exterior but really does make it more comfortable/serviceable.

[aitor iriarte]

I cannot download your second pic, Travis! :?

Aitor

[tlclark]

I cannot download your second pic, Travis! :?

Aitor

(Groan)

Ok, try it again, now it works for me.

Thanks

Travis

[aitor iriarte]

Now it works well, thanks, Travis!
I cannot understand why do you need to make such trick for improving the fitting... :?
img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tribunus/Unbelted.jpg

Aitor

[tlclark]

Now it works well, thanks, Travis!
I cannot understand why do you need to make such trick for improving the fitting... :?
img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tribunus/Unbelted.jpg

Aitor

Probably because my tunic is lighter weight linen than most. I am finding that most are using heavy weight linen. Mine is medium weight linen.

It also prevents the neckline from tearing as it make another two layers of material which you stitch through.

It's not historical, but it works.

I was wondering if anyone had any similar adjustments.

Travis

[Barbara]

well, photos of Authari wearing the tunica will follow, but at the moment I am working in the University in Cologne, and the zoom of my camera is not good enough for getting photos in Münster :wink:

Aitor: We did the clavi in another style a) to mark that it's not a reproduction but a interpretation and b) to interprete it in a later style, because we are doing 4th century and the pattern of the orbiculi does fit, but the style of the clavi seems to early for that.

For the neckline there are sometimes used card-weaved strips, like on one tunica from Cologne, collection columba. I will see if we have the book in the library, if not I can scan it in Münster.

Barbara

[aitor iriarte]

Barbara,
What makes you think that the Palmyra fragment is Third century or that the style of its clavi is too early for the Fourth?
Well dated actual textiles are a total oddity and it is not always easy to fix the date of the meagre iconographical sources... :?


Aitor

[Graham Sumner]

Hello Aitor

James Trilling in 'The Roman Heritage,Textiles from Egypt and the Eastern Mediterranean 300 to 600 AD', dates the Palmyra tunic which you have based yours on, before 273 AD.

However as we both know the dating of these decorated tunics is notoriously difficult.

Graham

P.S
I have booked my holiday in Tarragona at the end of May, so hope to see you there!

[Barbara]

A beautiful tunica, too! Very familiar patterns... :wink:

I think it's third, because a comolitone (? She studies at the same university) of mine is expert for coptic textiles and their style. Her Name is Annette Paetz gen. Schieck, an she wrote some books about coptic textiles, a great source of examples and datings: "Aus Gräbern geborgen : koptische Textilien aus eigener Sammlung ; eine Ausstellung des Deutschen Textilmuseums Krefeld ; 25. Mai - 14. September 2003"
/ Annette Paetz Schieck. - Krefeld : Deutsches Textilmuseum, 2003 and "Die koptischen Textilien – Gewebe und Gewänder des ersten Jahrtausends aus Ägypten", Reihe »Kolumba« (Bd. 19), Köln 2005). It's great work, what she does, and her research bases on lots of fragments and whole tunicas.

The problem is, that the fragments we have today are brougt in the late 19th or early 20th century to europe or the USA, without looking at the context or writing down what else was in the grave. So it's not possible to date the fragments on other Things than the pattern, the technic or the material - and most collections don't have the money to date it with modern science.

The only complete grave - with the corps! - I know is in Bruxelles, and it's a womans grave, and her tunicas are only decorated with card-weaving bands. But the pillow under her feet has eight (? maybe ten) orbiculi on it... Unfortunately this grave is only publicated with ONE Black&white photography and I did not have the money and the time to go there. Maybe that someone of you knows more literature about this grave?

So Annette dated the find from palmyra to the beginning/middle of third because of the pattern and iconography, maybe by weaving technic. For exact reasins I will have to ask her again, but I trust her opinion.

Back to our tunica: On the tips of the clavi maebh used the same pattern as the original has, and the main pattern on the clavi are just geometric patterns, in the stile of the orbiculi. Well, in the fourth century the clavi are - if they are decorated - mostly broadly decorated all over their width, in a mirrored design, there are nearly no fragments that are unsymmetric. (But you have to make shure that it's no "Mänadentunika" - the tunics that reach to the floor and are decorated with clavi reaching to the floor, too and a picture of dancing Maenades on the breast). Mostly it's a floral or geometric pattern.

And in the end it's boring when all of you boys walk around with the same reconstruction, so why don't play around with the facts and creating something new?

[Robert Vermaat]

And in the end it's boring when all of you boys walk around with the same reconstruction, so why don't play around with the facts and creating something new?

Very true, but so far, only few of us have reached this kind of quality..

I agree about the dating. Dating on style alone is extremely difficult because it goes back on ideas of cultural development (or fashion development) that might be completely modern. Only later we get to compare tunics to artistic reprenetations, and even then we can't exclude the possilbility that some designs were intentionally different from the 'mainstream fashion'.

[aitor iriarte]

Graham,
It will be great to meet again at Tarragona (But keep in mind that our display will be located at Centcelles, near a small town called Constantí, not far from Tarragona!)

Barbara,
The lack of symmetry on the clavi decorations is a good point. Notwithstanding, I've seen no more decoratins like that which could help it to be dated in the Third century... Can you help me? 8)
I chose that design in 2001 because it was geommetrical, formed a set and I had good detail pics to copy. Teh problem with many more or less complete tunics that I know is that they seem to be later than IV-Vth century... :?
I agree with Robert, we'd need some solid evidence for dating the textiles, rather better than stilistic (and somtimes, subjective) criteria

Aitor

[FAVENTIANVS]

Graham,
It will be great to meet again at Tarragona (But keep in mind that our display will be located at Centcelles, near a small town called Constantí, not far from Tarragona!)

Don't worry Graham, we'll pick you up by car...