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Hello Ivan and Aitor
You will both have to let me know when you are displaying. Ivan, thanks for the offer of a lift.
I will look forward to seeing you.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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Graham,
The dates for Tarraco Viva are 26th to 29th May. We'll keep you informed, don't worry! 
And, of course, you'll have the pleasure of sharing a car with us and tons of equipment! :wink:
Aitor
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
Rolf Steiner
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Folks, this is getting to be 'event-talk', please discuss it at the proper place.
I'm very happy that these past few years, the quality of tunic decoration seems to have risen fast!
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Oh, don't worry about us going astray, Robert! :wink:
We were just making time until somebody posts anything related to tunics again...
It would be nice to make a 'corpus' of military tunics depicted on late Roman iconographical sources with their respective dates.
Aitor
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
Rolf Steiner
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That would indeed be a good idea!
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Oh my godess... Do you know what work this is? I'm just working on one for female dresses. I'm still working on the Layout of the database and the more pictures I put in there the more details come to me and then I have to change the layout again, and again, and again...
Well, the best thing would be to seperate the tunicafragments after style (Maenad's tunica, David-Tunica, Joseph-Tunica etc.) and then by color (Bichrom, polychrom) the problem is where to put in the single orbiculi, because the may have been part of a tunica, a cloak or a pillow as well.
Here's a pic of the original from palmyra
![[Image: pamyra001.jpg]](http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g51/Koestner/pamyra001.jpg) sorry, photobucket did not check that i've turned it...
Well, back to the dating: The most 3rd century fragments I've seen were figural ones. There the dating is given by the quality of art: in the 3rd century the bodys look still like human corps, and later it's more an alien party...In fact, that is dependet by the origin of the textiles, too. Maybe that some weavers were more talented and some less. So it's just a hint, not an evidence.
But I've seen no example like palmyra, where an ornament is in such way out of symetry. I just had a look in the publication (A. Schmidt-Colinet et al., "Die Textilien aus Palmyra", 2000) and there are no hints for a wrong reconstruction or a mistake in conservating or things like this. It really was woven ith this pattern. Well, palmyrean people always were strange in some way, especially in art questions.
The most sticky thing I got on my mind when I saw the fragment was the pelta-like design of the clavi. The inner ends of the ornaments looks like peltas and peltas are one of the most used motives of the 2nd and 3rd century, as far as I know. Maybe that I'm wrong, I don't know exactly.
BAR-BAR-A
Barbara Köstner
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Barbara,
I see your point and I own the book on the Palmyre textiles too. Therefore, we haven't got any solid evidence to date this tunic accurately, except to say that it is an 'early' one (Say, not later than 4th century, perhaps...)
It was dated even to 2nd century because it was found in one tower-tomb constructed during that century but those tombs were opened many times and were far from being 'closed finds'... :?
I don't know much about peltae on textiles but they were widely used on metalwork and mosaics up to the 5th century.
Aitor
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
Rolf Steiner
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Well, so my feeling 'bout the peltas was wrong.
The tomb towers where mostly built in the 2nd century, yes. But they where used for a much longer time, and even if noone of the family died they did rent them out.
BAR-BAR-A
Barbara Köstner
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About that would-be corpus, I was rather thinking of compilating first pictorial evidence (Mosaics, paintings, miniatures...) which can be dated with some certainty rather than starting with detached orbiculi and clavus fragments...
We have no original pics which aren't copyrighted. Lots of books to be scanned, but tht is out of question... 
Aitor
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
Rolf Steiner
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I have seen several different styles of late Roman infantry helmets, listed below. What are the differences between them? I know the bottom one has a noise peice, and the top two are the same but one has cross' on the bowl and the other does not.
Joshua B. Davis
Marius Agorius Donatus Minius Germanicus
Optio Centuriae
Legio VI FFC, Cohors Flavus
[url:vat9d7f9]http://legvi.tripod.com[/url]
"Do or do not do, their is no try!" Yoda
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I can't see any of the pictures and the RAT server 'says' they don't exist...
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And I'm afraid that you're not the only one, Robert...
Aitor
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
Rolf Steiner
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I will try my best to descrip them for you then. The three that I did have posted are as follows:
- The first helmet is a bowl with a ridge down the center running front to back. On the front there are two circles that looks to be eyes. Cheeck peices on both sides with holes on the joint for ears and a neck gaurd in the back which looks to be on a hinge.
- The second helment is the same as abve but on the bowl around the eyes and down the sides of the bowl are crosses.
- The third is a bowl that looks like it is made of several peices. There is a plate that looks holds the front and the back part of the bowl together. A ridge peice that runs front to back and a pinned on noise gaurd. Cheeck peices that are on hinges with holes for the ears and a hinged on neck guard. This one also, by the picture, seems to have a much taller bowl than the other two.
Were these helmets made because of the change in warefare from large scale battles with greece, carthage, and eygpt to the small scale attacks with the barbarian tribes?
Was it because of the decline of the Empire and lack of money and knowledge to make such things?
Joshua B. Davis
Marius Agorius Donatus Minius Germanicus
Optio Centuriae
Legio VI FFC, Cohors Flavus
[url:vat9d7f9]http://legvi.tripod.com[/url]
"Do or do not do, their is no try!" Yoda
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I am currently working on my very first try of a 3rd Century tunic, with a little help from Graham's Roman military clothing 2. Cloth won't be hand-woven, but at least the tunic will be hand-stitched with hand-spun thread. Clavi and orbiculi will be applied and embroided. I'll post photos when the work does go ahead...
![[Image: tunikamalli.gif]](http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/8170/1456/1600/tunikamalli.gif)
The tunic is 96 x 83 cm. According to those egyptian textile finds it might be even a little too narrow, but on the other hand the iconographical tunics seem to be tighter, what do you say? My other (medieval) tunic is 92 x 65 cm, same size as the Dura tunic.
Also question about the leg wrappings: How long they should be?
Quote:We, late Roman re-enactors are always experiencing 'slight' problems to replicate correctly our clothes and we currently make do using sundry tricks and shortcuts...
Could you point most obvious problems a novice will encounter? I would like to avoid beginner's mistakes...
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