Han Chinese defeat Roman legionaires 36 BC?

[Viventius]

Matthew Amt said:

Ye gads, it's the "Romans in China" thing again! Pops up once or twice a year on some list or board, and every time it's the same ridiculous twaddle.

But it won't be helped by the very popular likes of Valerio Massimo Manfredi publishing a novel called the Empire of Eagles, set in AD 260 and speculating some Romans got as far as China ... :evil:

See, eg. http://www.lovereading.co.uk/book/1013

[Theodosius the Great]

Information and people have always traveled far as well, but the numbers and ammounts were always small, and did not represent any significant change in cultural movements.

Yes, very true. Although, I wonder how much of these artifacts found in non-Roman territory was actaully booty taken during Rome's decline. For example, there's a statue of Augustus in Ethiopia. I think it might have been taken on a raid.

So there's room for misinterpretation here. Trade is sometimes assumed to be the cause but that's not necessarily the case.

Information and people have always traveled far as well, but the numbers and ammounts were always small, and did not represent any significant change in cultural movements. This is why arguments over who "discovered" America are silly.

Right. That's why it's the wrong question to ask : "Who discovered America?" The real question is : "Who conquered America ?"

Yes vikings, Chinese and even Egyptians!

I believe it. They found tabacco within the contents of some Pharoah's stomach as I recall. You don't have to believe in Atlantis :lol:

[Thiudareiks Flavius]

They found tabacco within the contents of some Pharoah's stomach as I recall.

They did? Got a reference for that? I must say my 'Sceptic Alarm' is ringing off the wall, since surely such definite evidence of Egyptian contact with the Americas would be widely publicised, but I'd be interested to see if there is any solid information about this.

A Google search on several appropriate key-words has turned up nothing much, apart from unreferenced mentions on kooky web-sites called things like 'science-frontiers.com' and 'Hidden Mysteries' - none of which look very reliable.

[Tarbicus]

They did? Got a reference for that? I must say my 'Sceptic Alarm' is ringing off the wall, since surely such definite evidence of Egyptian contact with the Americas would be widely publicised, but I'd be interested to see if there is any solid information about this.

Discussed on EgyptSearch.com

Topic: Contact with the Americas?

Marijuana, cocaine and nicotine however, have been found in over 40 other mummies. Either these plants existed in the old world and became extinct or there was commerce between the old and the new world thousands of years ago.

[Thiudareiks Flavius]

Discussed on EgyptSearch.com

Topic: Contact with the Americas?

Marijuana, cocaine and nicotine however, have been found in over 40 other mummies. Either these plants existed in the old world and became extinct or there was commerce between the old and the new world thousands of years ago.

Okay, but I'm still sceptical. Where is the academic publication of these findings? They are revolutionary, if true. So why can't I find anything in credible, peer-reviewed material?

Sorry, but this sounds more than a little bit a bit whacko ...

[Tarbicus]

I didn't say they were right, I just found a site for Egyptian studies that didn't have "whacko" in its title :wink:

But:

www.druglibrary.org/Schaffer/Misc/mummies.htm

A REPORT OF HAIR ANALYSIS FROM DAKHLEH OASIS, EGYPT

As an example of the use of this technique, I will discuss a recent study of cocaine and nicotine in ancient hair samples from Egypt. Tobacco producing plants are of the genus Nicotinia which are of the Nightshade family. This is primarily a plant of the new world and use of tobacco is generally accepted to be an American innovation. However, Nicotinia species have been recorded in other continents including Africa. In addition, other members of the Nightshade family and other plants containing nicotine are found in Egypt.

Better?

[Thiudareiks Flavius]

Better?

Much. And thank you. I think that calms my sceptic alarm bells and makes a great deal more sense than any idea that the Egyptians had a conection with the Americas.

Thanks.

[Tarbicus]

Here's an interesting line concerning the Bay of Jars in Brazil, from the first link:

PROF MARTIN BERNAL - Historian, Cornell University:
"They can't have been planted because the bay was known as the Bay of Jars since the 18th century, so that Roman jars had been turning up, and this links up with indirect Roman documentary evidence of contact."

Although interpretation of the evidence is apparently debatable, it's an interesting article.

[Thiudareiks Flavius]

Here's an interesting line concerning the Bay of Jars in Brazil, from the first link:

PROF MARTIN BERNAL - Historian, Cornell University:
"They can't have been planted because the bay was known as the Bay of Jars since the 18th century, so that Roman jars had been turning up, and this links up with indirect Roman documentary evidence of contact."

Although interpretation of the evidence is apparently debatable, it's an interesting article.

Er, okay - the idea that the 'tobacco' in the stomachs of mummies was actually an African form of nightshade was sensible but - again - when I search in the key-words 'Bay of Jars' I start getting some seriously whacko websites.

So, anything academic and credible on this? Because sites about 'Prince Madoc' and other really loopy kookiness doesn't quite cut it for me, sorry.

[tlclark]

Discussed on EgyptSearch.com

Topic: Contact with the Americas?

Marijuana, cocaine and nicotine however, have been found in over 40 other mummies. Either these plants existed in the old world and became extinct or there was commerce between the old and the new world thousands of years ago.

Okay, but I'm still sceptical. Where is the academic publication of these findings? They are revolutionary, if true. So why can't I find anything in credible, peer-reviewed material?

Sorry, but this sounds more than a little bit a bit whacko ...

Just for the record, I don't think the Egyptians got to America. That was the point of the exclamation point, to express incredulity.

However, I am convinced they did circumnavigate the continent of Africa, so anything is possible, I think it was possible they MAY have done it, though I highly doubt it.

On the issue of tobacco, marijuana, etc in ancient contexts in the Old World. There is lots of anecdotal evidence that lots of so-called "new world" crops have been found in ancient contexts, but there is also lots of anecdotal evidence that climates and diodiversity in antiquity was vastly different. I have never seen anything definitive on this issue, my guess is that scholars are afraid of touching it.

This is a problem I call "crank-itis". A theory develops, gathers cranks and hacks to it, and that essentially kills the area for other scholars who won't touch it. The only problem is that there is often something interesting to discover, usually far less sensational that hoped by its afficianados, but worthy of scholarly study, but the cranks scare off all honest inquiry.

[tlclark]

Right. That's why it's the wrong question to ask : "Who discovered America?" The real question is : "Who conquered America ?"

Well that puts a little too much of a marxist spin on it, but yes.

Travis

[Tarbicus]

On the issue of tobacco, marijuana, etc in ancient contexts in the Old World. There is lots of anecdotal evidence that lots of so-called "new world" crops have been found in ancient contexts, but there is also lots of anecdotal evidence that climates and diodiversity in antiquity was vastly different. I have never seen anything definitive on this issue, my guess is that scholars are afraid of touching it.

Which is exactly the conclusion of many looking into the subject in-depth. Dig through the articles and follow some of the links, they're very interesting.

[Matthew Amt]

This is a problem I call "crank-itis". A theory develops, gathers cranks and hacks to it, and that essentially kills the area for other scholars who won't touch it.

Oh, excellent term! I see this happen again and again--just try discussing the Bronze Age Chronology Problem with an established scholar! I've heard of the Bay of Jars thing, supposedly a Roman wreck full of amphorae in Rio de Janero, I think. There was some discussion on some list or other that went so far as to trace the ship's route across the Atlantic, very scientifically. Even ran across one article which claimed there had been major street riots when the government tried to cover up the discovery! Problem is, no one has a picture of any of these jars--they could very easily be 16th or 17th century. Spanish galleons were full of jars that were very similar to some Roman types. Or it could be a load of stuff looted from Pompeii in the 18th century! But obviously there is something there, and it deserves to be investigated in its own right.

My favorite story of Romans ending up in unlikely places is David Drake's "Ranks of Bronze", in which Crassus' survivors are bought up by *aliens*, who use them to fight low-tech enemies on other planets. Lots of fun.

Valete,

Matthew

[Robert Vermaat]

Folks, please stay on topic.

[Nectanebo]

So if there is any Truth to this story at all we are talking about a group of Roman prisoners of war pressed into Parthian service and fighting for Parthia, not for Rome.