Nibelungen

[Jona Lendering]

Every book on the German Nibelungenlied ([url:20dfrnge]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibelungenlied[/url]) mentions that there is a historical event behind this story of doom and loyalty: the overthrow of the Burgundians, a Germanic tribe living in Worms, by the Roman commander Aetius and an allied army of Huns, in a year that may be 436, 437, or 438.

However, no book mentions the source for this information. I checked the six book on the great epic that I own, I checked the Neue Pauly, I did several google runs. Nichts, niente, nothing, nada, rien, nihil, ouden, noppes.

Anyone?

[caiusbeerquitius]

Here is more literature on the topic.
Cheers!

[Carlton Bach]

I'm guessing the theory is so old it has become cultural heritage. Have you looked at the earliest print editions, shortly after rediscovery? That's most likely where it originates.

Personally, I'm not buying into any of the suspiciously complete alternative explanations, but I am not at all convinced the Nibelungenlied describes any one recognisable historical event.

[FAVENTIANVS]

Mario Brusagli's ATTILA says so.

[Jona Lendering]

I am not at all convinced the Nibelungenlied describes any one recognisable historical event.

I think there are some echoes from long-time-ago events. A couple of names (Kriemhild, Gunther, Etzel, Diederich...) date back to the fifth century, and places like Xanten, Worms, Passau, and Vienna were once important. And -as is claimed- an army of Huns, although commanded by a Roman, overthrew the Burgundians. It can not be much more.

As far as the other half the Nibelungen story, the tale of Siegfried, is concerned, I think it is almost entirely mythical.

[Robert Vermaat]

I am not at all convinced the Nibelungenlied describes any one recognisable historical event.

I think there are some echoes from long-time-ago events. A couple of names (Kriemhild, Gunther, Etzel, Diederich...) date back to the fifth century, and places like Xanten, Worms, Passau, and Vienna were once important. And -as is claimed- an army of Huns, although commanded by a Roman, overthrew the Burgundians. It can not be much more.

I doubt that the Nibelungenlied by itself reflects a historical event anymore than the myriad of Medieval legends about the murder of a 1000 saints near Cologne represents one historical event.
Having said that, I do think that the destruction of the Burgundians in the Middle Rhine area in the mid-5th century surely plays a part of the background story. Muddled, no doubt (Attila surely did not play a part but rather his father).
But I also happen to lend credence to the theory that the Hengist of the Beowulf saga and the Finnesburgh Fragment is the same Hengist who figures as an exile in early English myths and history.

As far as the other half the Nibelungen story, the tale of Siegfried, is concerned, I think it is almost entirely mythical.

I agree entirely.
However, he was born in Xanten...

[hoplite14gr]

Some where I read that Ziegfried's fight with the Dragon reflects memoris of Teutoburg forrests when the German tribesmen captured the roman cavalry Alae, dragon-like standards. any chance of this being true?
Kind regards

[Jona Lendering]

The connection with the Teutoburg Forest was proposed by Otto Höfler, in the late 1940's. Although not impossible, there is one stain on the theory. Höfler said that the "Gnithaheide", the place where according to the Edda's Siegfried defeated the dragon, was identical to a place on the river Werre that is still called "Knetterheide", and was also identical to the site of Arminius' ambush.

The trouble is that this "heide" (heath) was called after a family in the sixteenth century. The later identification of the real Teutoburg battlefield at Kalkriese has not improved Höfler's position.

This leaves, however, Höfler's linguistic arguments. I do not recall them all, but one of them was that (again in the Edda's) Siegfried calls himself a "noble deer", which is also what "Cheruscans" means.

Another point is the existence of a Lower-German tradition (only known from a Norse translation) that locates the shoot-out against the Nibelungen (i.e., the owners of the treasure, who are in the Nibelungenlied identified with the Burgundians) in a town called Soest, in former Cheruscan territory.

In addition, it may be said that Siegfried and his opponent Hagen are from Xanten and "Tronje" (<<< Trigesima = XXX Ulpia Traiana = Xanten). This also places the Siegfried stories in Lower Germany; later, they were connected with the Upper German stories about the Huns and the Burgundians.

So, Höfler may be right: it is possible that the stories about Siegfried originated in what is now Nordrhein-Westfalen.

[Jona Lendering]

I finally found the answer! The historical event behind the Nibelungen song, the fall of the Burgundians, was recorded by Prosper Tiro, anno 435:

Eodem tempore Gundicharium Burgundorum regem intra
Gallias habitantem Aetius bello obtrivit pacemque ei suppli-
canti dedit, qua non diu potitus est, siquidem illum Chuni
cum populo suo ab stirpe deleverint.

At that time, Aetius destroyed in war Gundicarius, king of the Burgundians living in Gaul, and gave him pace when he begged for it; but he did not long enjoy it, because the Huns completely destoyed him and his people.

[Muzzaguchi]

Hi All,

The theory I heard was that the dragon (a scaly serpent wreaking havoc on the kingdom) represented the Roman army (perhaps that of Varus) - the scales being the shields/armour of the legions and that a great hero - Siegfried/Arminius was despatched to destroy it/them.

Come to think of it I heard similar things suggested of Beowulf too - but I can't remember where i heard either. Sorry

Cheers

Murray

[Robert Vermaat]

The theory I heard was that the dragon (a scaly serpent wreaking havoc on the kingdom) represented the Roman army (perhaps that of Varus) - the scales being the shields/armour of the legions and that a great hero - Siegfried/Arminius was despatched to destroy it/them.

Why Varus?
A late Roman army would have been accompanied by many dragons, as the draco was the standard that would have been carried by each cohort, not to mention the staff and the cavalry.

[Jona Lendering]

Why Varus?

Because Höfler, who proposed the theory, had other arguments. #1 and #3 are, although not conclusive, worth considering.

(1)
The Siegfried saga belongs to northern Germany. We know that at least one manuscript, antedating the High German standard version, centered on his marriage to a princess in Soest, not Worms. Please note the connection to Xanten too. The name Nibelungen is Franconian (cf. the town Nijvel in Belgium). A text written in Low German must be the missing link between the High German version and the Icelandic sagas.

(2)
The Icelandic version identifies the place where Sigurd killed the dragon as Gnitaheide. We know from a medieval itinerary that this is somewhere between Minden and Paderborn. This again brings us to northern Germany. It may even be a clue to the identification of the location of the fights in the Teutoburg Forests; Kalkriese, more to the west, need not have been the only location, especially because our sources indicate that several sites were abandoned.

Höfler thought that the Teutoburg Forest battle was in this area too, and even proposed the identification with modern Knetterheide (NW of Detmold); which, however, is called after a family from the seventeenth century.

(3)
In the saga, the dragon asks Sigurd's name. He can not refuse to answer, but knows he will be cursed if he replies; so he evades the question by saying that he is "a swift stag". "Cheruscans" means "stag people".

These arguments I remember. I still think that Höfler, although he was wrong in his identification, was looking in the right direction, although I immediately add that perhaps the hypothesis is unnecessary. Most elements of the Icelandic saga and the High German version are referring to the fifth or sixth century; adding a first-century element is a "Fremdkörper", a strange element.

[taira1180]

I think that it was actually Hans Delbruch (in the "History of the art of war"") the first to propose the theory of Siegfried being Arminius.

[Jona Lendering]

I think that it was actually Hans Delbruch (in the "History of the art of war"") the first to propose the theory of Siegfried being Arminius.

Another reason to read it... :wink:

[Matt Lukes]

Why Varus?
A late Roman army would have been accompanied by many dragons, as the draco was the standard that would have been carried by each cohort, not to mention the staff and the cavalry.

Indeed- I thought the Draco was a rather later form of standard, not a type that Varus' forces would have carried. They certainly had the silver Eagles (Aquilae), but no Dracones I think...