Pompeii \'shin guards\'

[richsc]

I just saw the famous Pompeii 'shin guards at the Pompeii exhibit in Chicago and was amazed at how big they are: about 8" across as I eye-balled them. How can they be shin guards? Short too. I would think at this size they were thigh guards, and what is supposed to be the arch for the ankle is the opening for the knee, and there would be a greave to cover the knee itself, even if they haven't found one. Thoughts?

[Tarbicus]

Richard, are these what you are talking about? (two thirds of the way down the page)
www.roman-empire.net/articles/article-013.html

Note the leftmost figure in the very bottom photo - he seems to wear similar on his shins.

[Martin Moser]

I just saw the famous Pompeii 'shin guards at the Pompeii exhibit in Chicago and was amazed at how big they are: about 8" across as I eye-balled them. How can they be shin guards? Short too.

Sounds like you are talking about something like the right one in the pic Jim posted the link to. That is a greave/shin guard worn by a secutor or Murmillo. He only wore one, on the (usually) left, shield foot. It's so wide because it was worn over heavy padding, often in the form of a boot. (If the greave were a little higher, to cover the knee, it would be meant for a provocator instead.) The other pair of greaves with overknee length in that picture would have been worn by a Hoplomachus or Thraex.

[adamparsons]

I am currently ordering the sheet (O.K brass but its close enough) to make some reconstructions of one of these to use for my secutor and Murmillo Impression, but while we have a thread can I ask if anyone knows how thick they are?

I know the helms range from 2-3mm, which is thicker than the contempoary infantry armour usualy 0.75-1mm, but does this apply to greaves and manica?

An engineer friend of mine says I will still get good strength and the detail from 1mm, but I wasn't sure if the originals were thicker?

cheers
Adam

[richsc]

Yes, that's the image in the Myrmillo, and it looks like the one in the other photo of the artifacts, but it looks a lot bigger than that one. The padding would be enormous and the drawings and reliefs don't appear to show padding. Not to mention something that thick (albeit parade wear) would make your feet not move at all. Would that be considered a deliberate handicapping of the myrmillo if a shin guard?

[adamparsons]

If it helps the discussion, I have just made padded manica to go under my metal armguards and shin guard, and I used some of the easier mosaics to base my reconstruction on and they clearly show quite large fat padded limb defence.

You can see a large padded shin guard/boot here: (though no greave)

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/enc ... arius.html

On this next page you can clearly see on the retiarius a padded garment with the metal armguard strapped over it. (just visible on the top edge) You can also see the secutor is wearing a greave, over his left leg padding:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/enc ... cutor.html

Interestingly I think the retiarius 'may' have greaves on this second mosaic though it looks like he has little padding, maybe just a leather ankle/shin collar as per Junklemanns reconstructions.

Using these and others I have made a left leg and right armguard, and they are stuffed about 1" thick, pretty tight, and mobility is completely unrestricted- even for slashing and blocking cuts.

cheers
Adam

[adamparsons]

P.S wearing the shin guard makes my lower leg about the size of my thigh- if not a little thicker.

[Conal]

Adam

I dont think the Ret has shin guards just a tie at the knee .... see right leg of Sec ..he has same thing.

A fashion accesory ?

[adamparsons]

Yeah you could be right, the dark line that looks like an edge does continue up the thigh on one leg and so could be a crude attempt at muscle definition.

The secutor also has the 'knee tie' on his unpadded leg, but also an add little strap half way up his calf. Maybe the little strap is related to the leather anklets?

But the knee tie could just be fashion as you say, although I have heard various theories about blood restriction, but don't know enough about it myself and most of what I have read and seen seemed a bit silly to me and not particularly convincing?

Adam

[Martin Moser]

I am currently ordering the sheet (O.K brass but its close enough) to make some reconstructions of one of these to use for my secutor and Murmillo Impression, but while we have a thread can I ask if anyone knows how thick they are?

4 out of the 6 short greaves in Das Spiel mit dem Tod have the thickness cited and they range from 0.7 - 1.37 mm ....

[adamparsons]

thanks Martin, I think I'm going to end up bringing that book forward on my "to purchase" list real quickly!

I guess to get the level of detail they are getting on some of the Ocrea then that thickness makes sense. After all the embossing with impart great strength to the armour.

Adam