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Were the Germans physically superior?
#46
Quote:Rome conquer their world because use order and technology, brain against muscle, the roman weapons were inferior on quality but were into a "mass production" and were very effective, every soldier were well equiped, only the barbarian rulers use chain mail or iron helmets, the vast mass of a barbarian army were single armed warriors with javlaines or a spear

Hello, Arminius,

From the above quote, "order and technology," correct.
"brain against muscle," NO. The barbarians (I guess we're calling them "Germans) had just as much "brain," but early-on they lacked the "order and technology" part.

By the late 3rd century the barbarians gained better weapons and armor. By the beginning of the 4th century, they constituted over 90 percent of the Roman army. Remember that both Fritigern and Alaric were former Roman officers-- and this is the very clique that projected the Western Empire's downfall. :wink:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#47
Actually, the Germans were gaining in experience and technology from early on.
The Macromannic wars gave Marcus Aurelius so much trouble, because the Marcomanni were using Roman equipment and Techniques against them. I believe this was discussed on this forum in the past.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
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Byron Angel
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#48
Arminius 75,
Quote:Rome conquer their world because use order and technology, brain against muscle, the roman weapons were inferior on quality but were into a "mass production" and were very effective, every soldier were well equiped, only the barbarian rulers use chain mail or iron helmets, the vast mass of a barbarian army were single armed warriors with javlaines or a spear
...now I wouldn't subscribe to that statement in full.
In the meantime it has become a fact that from ca. 150 BC on the Roman could utilize "Ferrum Noricum", based on a sort of iron-oar that is amongst the best available on this planet (some folks even argue that it has come to earth via a comet that struck the Chiemgau-area in southern Bavaria -- as far as I am concerned I still have some reservations against this thesis,but .....).
The relations from that time on gave the Norici a privileged status when the Romans conquered the Alps and its northern "Foreland" before 15 BC, --- they were considered als Foederati/Amici for most parts as they supplied Rome with "strategic metals". ( ....and was not just "some furnaces" there, it was, even by modern standards, an industry)
[url:nm59e7vb]http://www.dieuniversitaet-online.at/beitraege/news/ferrum-noricum-ein-synonym-fur-qualitat-und-harte/69/neste/3.html[/url] in German
[url:nm59e7vb]http://www.alpine-space.org/uploads/media/IRONROUTE_Abstract_of_the_research_activities_WP5_PP3.pdf[/url] in English
[url:nm59e7vb]http://www.ironroute.org/iron-public/wp5-6/PP3_THA/Abstract%20Research%20WP5_Huettenberg%20_Austria_DE.pdf[/url]in German
(Of course it wasn't confined to the Huettenberg-area, the situation there serving as an example)
Some authors from antiquity do even mention situations where (german) warriors had to quit fighting and "straighten" their weapons as they were of inferior metal than weapons used by the Romans.
Greez

Simplex
Siggi K.
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#49
Yup.
I think you guys are correct on the iron part.
Pliny mentions the best quality iron came from three places-- Noricum, Raitia, and "on the caravans coming from Serica." :wink:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#50
The Noricii people were Illyrians with celtic rulers, were an "Friend of rome" becasue Rome represent a safe treat against other celtic and germanic tribes, Rome saw an strategic point with many mineral and another natural resources, but see the political nature of every province and you soon can ralize that: Many of the tribes were under this consideration, Rome represent a power but not as an Conqueror, on Gallæcia roman were there as "Hospites" not as conquerors, Because the gold of "Las Medulas" prehaps (actually Las Medulas were an Astur territory) but Rome with an Huge taerritory to administrate need more friends than foes...respect to the "high" Quality of roman weapons against those of barbarians .., gladius hispanielsis were an Celtic or iberian short sword designed originally on Hispania and is not a high quality sword, the quality of the iron is not all, is very important the quality of the blacksmith, romans were no so skillful blacksmiths, again, is enough a pillum were very effective even as an dissposable weapon, the combination of roman tactics were more importan...the barbarian weapons were superior BUT jus those of noble men or rich warriors, the vast armies were armored with very bad quality and cheap short swords, spears, javelines, etc., a good sword were so expensive as to buy an BMW car today with the salary of a nanny, please do not see as a single information Historiographic sources are referencial only, there is not a ablsolut and final info, there is the archaeological studies about ancient weapons, that is another history specially on late roman empire times 8)
Järnvarg - José L. Díaz - Archaeologist[color=#0000FF]
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#51
Hi Arminius,
...I faintly remember we may have already (slightly) touched the subject of weapons technology (at least) here:
link from old RAT
link from old RAT
...surely a blacksmith didn't have the same "standing" in Roman society as it hat in germanic cultures ( e.g. as reflected in the "Nibelungenlied" and other similar sagas), but who said the romans did not "recruit" "technical personell" from abroad/occupied countries ? :mrgreen:
I've read the papers from Ilerup-Adal (they got their own website: [url:uajyd23u]http://www.illerup.dk/deepweb.php?top=30&language=1[/url]; in Danish, German, English), which I'd recommend, and DB Campbell benevolently "put my nose" on the Thorsberg finds.(making me spend nights reading instead of partying Big Grin )
More recent publications also mentioning other finding-places have been made available for the broader public in the "Varusschlacht" exhibiton catalogue.(in German)
I think some references have also been made in the "Battlefield found ..."-thread.(The first link above)
Happy reading 8) .
Greez

Siggi
Siggi K.
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#52
Quote:But like you, I really don't think Germans or Goths or Caledonians were "superior" to Romans, especially Roman soldiers (even plain old Italian ones). If Romans were so physically inferior, how did they conquer a third of the known world? (They usually say "half of the known world," but I'm throwing China in there as one-third.) :wink:

Caesar mentioned that the German soldiers were usually taller than the Roman legionaries, but I don't know if taller necessarily means "superior." If you look the athletes who compete in Olympic fencing, most of them are of average height. Longer limbs can probably generate greater leverage, but a bigger body also means more exposed flesh.
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#53
Quote:The Noricii people were Illyrians with celtic rulers
Were they? I recall reading that the tribes of Noricum were considered to have been Celtic. Besides, although I'm not familiar with the latest scholarship on the Illyrians, were these not considered to have been largely a figment of Jugoslav imagination?

Let's return to the original question.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#54
Back to the question. Big Grin

Quote:Caesar mentioned that the German soldiers were usually taller than the Roman legionaries, but I don't know if taller necessarily means "superior." If you look the athletes who compete in Olympic fencing, most of them are of average height. Longer limbs can probably generate greater leverage, but a bigger body also means more exposed flesh.

Again, I don't think bigger-German equates with "physical superiority." Longer limbs create more leverage, but a large body and long limbs may also make for slower reaction. Take for example a lightening-fast athlete like Jet Li. :lol:

I know it's almost a joke (discussing Jet Li). He has fast motor-reactions, and at the same time he is a small man. Whereas someone like say the (somewhat) late Andre the Giant, was a plodding ... well, Giant. If you get my drift. Bigger appears to be slower. If I were a compact Jet Li Italian-Roman, chances are I could draw my gladius faster than Andre the German could pull out his big, long, slashing sword... and I'd stab the sob before he had a chance to say, "What the...?" :wink:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#55
Then again, I have seen physically big men, who are amazingly agile too!
So there would be a lot more than just size to put the wind up the Romans.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#56
Quote:
Arminius75:f43u1vcb Wrote:The Noricii people were Illyrians with celtic rulers
Were they? I recall reading that the tribes of Noricum were considered to have been Celtic. Besides, although I'm not familiar with the latest scholarship on the Illyrians, were these not considered to have been largely a figment of Jugoslav imagination?

Let's return to the original question.
Sorry but i'm not jugoslav, i'm peruvian with swedish blood and celtic and andean blood too...there is the information on roman sources the Noricii tribe were a celtic minority who rule over a Illirian population very alike of those from Pannonia ..ILllyrians or venetics were a Central Eurpe fenomena Not jus an Balcanic manifestation where the Celt (and i a proud descendant of a celtic grand father) have nothing to do on the "genesis" or origins of the culture..sorry man Hallstatt are absolutly a NON Celtic cultural manifestation ..Celts were on Central and Eastern Europe on after Illyrians or venetic on late centuries before the romans took the control of these area and the Celts were the "new kids on the block" nor the "original owners" Smile
Järnvarg - José L. Díaz - Archaeologist[color=#0000FF]
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#57
A fact, what i means about "Brain against muscle" is not in terms of "the wise and skinny guy against the muscle moron" THe germans and Illyrians and Celtics and Thracians ...were a very high developed cultures ..the germans survive because were a very versatile and a very smart people who understand, learn and improve the roman technology and tactics, the germans develop Steel before any others on Europe, the germans were a very inteligent folk, there is not doubts...the roman armies were a complex formations with a lot of "barbarian" blood so is hard to say "the roman somato-type" there is celtics, illyrians, trhacians, germans, italics, Iberians....and many others peoples and not as auxiliar troops as the beginin...on the early times roman army were a "roman army" with citizens but the same formation of roman are a complex mixzture between etruscans, italics and many other ethnic groups...
Järnvarg - José L. Díaz - Archaeologist[color=#0000FF]
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#58
Hi José,
Quote:Sorry but i'm not jugoslav
I never suggested that you were. I suggested that the Illyrians were a creation of Yugoslav nationalism. I've read about the wish of Tito to create a Yugoslav ''ancestor-people" that could rival with the Romans, Celts and Germans as a large 'proto-European' tribe. I'm therefore not sure that 'THE Illyrians' existed, or that they, as I wrote, were a figment of 'Yugoslav imagination'.
But if the Illyrians were more than a group of languages but also a cultural group, there does not seem to be any solid proof to build a coherent theory on. Linguists think that the proto-Illyrians branched off from Indo-European tribes, thereby assuming a geographical move towards where we find them in the historical period. But material evidence has never been conclusive enough for archaeologists to prove a cultural developing group such as the Hallstatt group.

I'm not going to discuss the name 'Celtic' here, i just want to explain my point about the Illyrians.

Quote:sorry man Hallstatt are absolutly a NON Celtic cultural manifestation ..Celts were on Central and Eastern Europe on after Illyrians or venetic on late centuries before the romans took the control of these area and the Celts were the "new kids on the block" nor the "original owners" Smile
You say 'absolutely''? I bet you can back that strong statement up with some references.
I only know of a theory that places proto-Illyrians (or proto-Veneti) in the eastern part of the Hallstatt zone, and only the Alpine parts at that. The middle and western parts (from Bavaria to the middle of France) of this cultural zone were to my knowledge never associated with either Illyrians or Veneti. To my knowledge, no linguistic remains of these groups (which are mostly defined by language) do not appear there.

But we're moving away from the original topic - maybe I should create a new thread: "Who were the Illyrians"?
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#59
Quote:
Arminius75:2i70gn9j Wrote:sorry man Hallstatt are absolutly a NON Celtic cultural manifestation ..Celts were on Central and Eastern Europe on after Illyrians or venetic on late centuries before the romans took the control of these area and the Celts were the "new kids on the block" nor the "original owners" Smile
You say 'absolutely''? I bet you can back that strong statement up with some references.
I only know of a theory that places proto-Illyrians (or proto-Veneti) in the eastern part of the Hallstatt zone, and only the Alpine parts at that. The middle and western parts (from Bavaria to the middle of France) of this cultural zone were to my knowledge never associated with either Illyrians or Veneti. To my knowledge, no linguistic remains of these groups (which are mostly defined by language) do not appear there.

Yep, youre right, i`m wrong when use the term "absolut" but i keep this position based on roman historiogrphic sources as the mention of Servius on reference of the æneid about the liburnian origin of those inhabitants of Vindelicia (those non Helvetii), and of course is not linguisitc, from the linguisitc point of view the Illyrians do not "exist" becasue only suvive a few personal names, but when asociate the archaeological data is another history, the only writings evidences comes from venetic and liburnians goups and from Messapic peoples too and many scholars denied an Illyrian origin, if Hallstatt are not Illyrian or Venetic , perhaps but Celtics are far away and archaeology show their prescence very late there....well youre right again when noted this "non topic" issue, we are talking about germans...but again talking about languages we need to be very careful because "lenguage do not define a culture as a culture do not define a race" Archaeology need al referencial information to contrast every empiric evidence, every science for their own can't explain a complex fenomena ...and language ....mmmm i am a spanish speaker but i'm not spaniard .... :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Järnvarg - José L. Díaz - Archaeologist[color=#0000FF]
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#60
Now back to the topic.
Were the Germans physically superior?

How about the ones with arthritis?
What about German midgets?
How about "mentally challenged?"
What about over-weight ones?
How about the "skinny as a rail" ones. :wink:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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