THE REAL ROMAN ARMY vrs. the renactments

[tlclark]

Check out Connolley's "The Ancient City" for nice images of the subura and parts of the city. Everything in hollywood is too white with too much marble, usually. Most of Rome was brick, left plain or stuccoed.

If you ever get the chance, go to Ostia, just a short train ride from Rome, it really gives you the character of a roman city.

Travis

Someone earlier up (sorry I don't remember!) mentioned that HBO's Rome finally got around to painting walls, graffiti, vibrant store signs, etc. Rome was probably as busy in terms of color as any modern street corner. Lots of color and lots of busy competing signs, graffite etc.

Editor's note: OK, I have started to respond to my own posts! Can anyone tell I'm grading finals for my students?! I think I need an RAT 12 step program.

Cheers,
Travis

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

we have to remember for roman, their shiny was not our shiny!!!! they didnt have brasso etc, which too many reenactors use. also, depends what you are portraying, believe me, if you look at pics of troops who have been in combat for a little while all the shine is gone, but, they would have still kept thier armour functional, unlike in gladiator where it is caked in dirt, you would have to be lazy to get it to look like that.

[Woadwarrior]

that book is in barnes and noble im going to buy it soon
but what about the feel of the city, like in the market place with all the civilians swarming did the hbo series portray that correctly?

hey guess what im going to rome in the summer for a week, then im going to venice, and naples! i cant wait
i wont be able to go to ostis
i want to though

[Marcus Mummius]

Here's a site with a few movies on it: http://www.leg8.com/

They are on the right hand side of the page.

Regards,

[Narukami]

This just reminded me of a funny line from "The Coconuts" by the Marx brothers.

"You can get stucco. Oh boy can you get stuccoed!"

Cheers.

Travis


Groucho: "That's past tense. In fact we're way past tents. We're living in bungalows now." :wink:

Narukami

[Celer]

Jasper,

Sorry about my misunderstanding. How do I apply for disc space?

Gratis,

Celer.

[Praefectusclassis]

You just did.

[A_Volpe]

Don't ever look to Hollywood for anything "accurate", not any time soon. Look to it for adventure, fun and inspiration [to do research on!]

Remember Hollywood is there to make massive profits off of "general public moviegoers", not bookworm, historical accuracy geeks like us. If Joe Schmoe Meathead goes to "Gladiator" and sees the soldiers and thinks "Oh, them must be Romans!", then Hollywood considers themselves successful, they dooped another goober.

Was something like "Gladiator" and "Rome" Good? Yes, for a *MOVIE* or a *TV SERIES*. That is where the "accuracy" is going to end. I certainly enjoyed both of these, but also had some fun picking apart nearly every detail I know about Roman history from what is represented in surviving Art, Archaeolgy and the past 50 someodd years of intense Academic research.

Again, the people who have spent an awful amount of thier time, energy and money on researching Rome, people like Robinson, Connoly, MC Bishop, Matt Amt...You can't deny thier hard work and academic conclusions on what we have left from Roman times. Granted, the hard truth is we will probbaly never know "everything" about Rome. In fact, much of our "kit" and gear has had to undergo a complete revamp thanks to the continued research of these people, be it Academics, Reenactors, and even "Hobbists" - I know personally my own gear and presentation that I do for a world-renowed Armory Museum, nearly twice a month, has needed to change, sometimes drastically due to new discoveries, new/better proven theories and conclusions, and near constant research and interpretation for the last 4 years I've been doing this.

Some information that was known as "truth" has come to be disproven or made "obsolete" (I hate using that term sometimes) - for example, Lorica Segmentata, what was known when the Corbridge armors were found, compared to what we've found only 5-10 years ago ("Newstead" and "Kalkriese" armors)

Groups like Ermine Street Guard, Matt Amt's Leg. XX, and even people like Dan Peterson, being the "pioneers" that they are in Roman reenacting/research, even they have had to accept and adapt to new research and finds....Roman Reenacting will always be changing, improving and improving, because we *DO* want to be as accurate as we possibly can, sometimes that is really frustrating financially and time wise, I'm sure we can all admit to that....Sometimes the gear that is available "commercially", with say Deepeeka, either starts out like crap, or just due to the monster that is Mass Production and Marketing, sometimes Good Gear turns out Bad - However, Deepeeka has made a great move in trying to absorb our feedback and research to hopefully get out better gear for us, there is even a forum for that on this board!

That shows that again, with the last 50 years of research, and hundreds of us "geeks" and reenactors are really trying to keep up with information and trying to make gear as accurately as we can afford, you can't deny that what we do IS accurate.

Compare that to Hollywood. They will justify spending 10 bazillion dollars on crap-ass gear in order to save 11 bazillion dollars to buy OK or even accurate gear. As long as the movie makes a massive profit in sales and merchandise, that is what they want. Hollywood is a Creature of Habit...What sold like hotcakes before, ceretainly must sell like crazy the second, third, forth time around. This is why we have sequels and prequels and whatnot from everything from Cult movies to cancelled TV Series. So, if "Leather" Lorica Segementata "worked" for Spartacus and Ben Hur, then surely it will work for Gladiator, because Hollywood thinks we're a bunch of meatheads...They want to convey the Gist of "Epic", and wouldn't pee on accuracy if the books were burning, because that won't "sell" to the masses.

Until that crappy additude changes, and real progress is made, not some "happy medium" like with "Rome"
(soapbox moment: In Rome, when they went to Egypt...Could somebody PLEASE show me a piece of ancient Egyptian art that shows without a doubt what the actors were wearing was what was shown on ancient art? Please? What? It doesn't exist? Ok, I proved my point), We "Reenactors" will just have to dissapoint the public when we have to educate them on what is accurate as best as we can currently tell, and what is Hollywood cheese.

Again, did you like Gladiator? Good. I did too. Is it accurate? No. Am I going to stop you from seeing another movie like it? Probably not. I'll probably give you a hard time, or I might even enjoy the movie too, but I'll know what's been researched and what's been pulled off as a fast-one. Don't deny the hard work that we've all been trying to put into this. Some people's academic careers are bent on this kind of work, and there's alot more stuff to dig up and catalog. :wink:

[drsrob]

Salve,

The Centurion's helmet is the Gallic 'F' from Sisak in Croatia. H Russell Robinson Illustrated it in the Armour of Imperial Rome, but the photograph was of usch poor quality that he mistook the side-rings for the crest as rivets for the protective peak. It is illustrated in the Croatian Museum catalogue, but I cannot seem to download the image on this forum. Any suggestions?

Vale,

Celer.

Ah, that one. I wondered about that side boss in the past. It also has a different crest attachment; twist on rather than slide on. I don't see any side rings though and the silver bosses usually covered rivets and not rings.

[Tarbicus]

In fact, much of our "kit" and gear has had to undergo a complete revamp thanks to the continued research of these people, be it Academics, Reenactors, and even "Hobbists"

Is that Peter Jackson getting involved as well now? I thought we were talking about 'Gladiator' and 'Rome'. What's 'Lord of the Rings' got to do with it?

:wink:

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

[ Edit: I posted this after reading page 1. THEN I saw the next four pages. Ooops! But I'll add my II asses worth anyway...]

One thing Hollywood can't get right, and thank god, is the smell. Anyone who has been in the "field" (by this I mean in the real deal, not maneuvers) for more than three days will reek. You don't notice it unless you get sent to the rear, and get a shower, and then go back to your unit. Then it takes a few days to get back with it.

Also consider: equipment for films are worn for dramatic effect. Equipment worn under combat conditions are either the result of a pragmatic design evolution for practical reasons, or it is discarded. Use and adaptation is a survival issue. Especially in the ancient world. Given the Napoleonic snazzy stuff, but even then it was for unit recognition in the last analysis. As pointed out in previous posts, reenactors strive towards the historical and archaeological record.

Renactors tend to have better hygiene and this reasonably may be overlooked... they are also better fed, so they don't have to forage much. Most reenactors have other ways of making a living than by being professionally violent. Thus, the body language, and general outlook on life may be different. This is referred to in Police work as a "command presence". If real reenactors behaved like real Romans, or almost any modern combat unit (note: combat, not support unit), and like any inner city police dept when you do something stupid, you would not want to be around them. Count your blessings...


I think its unfortunate that Hollywood never did anything like Seven Samurai, which proves the film industry can do things right if they want to. Maybe there will be a new Kurosawa once the current crowd dies off. Would not it be interesting to do a serious film from the point of view of the common Roman soldier? "All Quiet On The Dacian Front"?

Gaius Decius Aqulius
(Ralph Izard)

[Chuck Russell]

IF hollywood does a 7 samurai i think i'll kill myself

[tlclark]

In fact, much of our "kit" and gear has had to undergo a complete revamp thanks to the continued research of these people, be it Academics, Reenactors, and even "Hobbists"

Is that Peter Jackson getting involved as well now? I thought we were talking about 'Gladiator' and 'Rome'. What's 'Lord of the Rings' got to do with it?

:wink:

Don't get me started!

The westernese blades used by the hobbits were all wrong, and Everyone knows that the weapons coming out of gondolin for the first age were not leaf-shaped.

Puh-leeze!

[tlclark]

I totally agree about the whole 'bearing' idea. My father's friends who went to Vietnam still check corners when they come into a room. There's lots of subtle stuff a re-enactor would never pick up.

Renactors tend to have better hygiene and this reasonably may be overlooked...

Actually I don't know. When Hollywood does Old West they tend to make everyone look like they rolled in a manure heap.

From what we know of old west journals and photographs, there was a lot of effort on personal cleanliness. I mean, my grandfather put on a tie to go to the lumber yard!

I think that things might have gotten rougher on the march so to speak, but in camp I think given what we know from Romans and their habits, they may have been a fastidious bunch. All the evidence suggests that the Spartans were downright obsessive about looks/grooming.

Travis

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

IF hollywood does a 7 samurai i think i'll kill myself

No! No! I mean on same level as Seven Samurai... not a remake! It boggles the mind. I would kill my self also! PC envioronmentally concious anti-war pot smoking gay cowboys save village of illegal migrant workers with their band and with their musical message during their protest march...


tlcark,

I know what you mean about the old west, but we could not even carry soap or toothpast beacuse the smell would linger... different diets also leave distinct scents.

GDA
(Ralph Izard)