Spolas? "Subarmalis"?

[Dan Howard]

Dear "Dan Howard", the "Linothorax" was - in the beggining - a cuirass of linen layers... But, as always, people finding many things to "upgrade" their weapons, so the "Linothorax" became ALSO (not ONLY!) from leather too...

How would it be upgrading? Multiple layers of linen offers better protection than a leather cuirass of a similar weight. It probably also cost more.

Do you ALSO have done, a "Pyrgos" ("Wall") shield aswell and long spear, as the Achaeans used to have???

The whole point of this sort of armour was to negate the need for a shield. There is no way that a warrior wearing armour as protective as a Dendra Panoply would have carried a shield. Personally I think it was worn by charioteers and, after examining the armour worn by other charioteers of other cultures, am leaning towards the idea that it was specifically worn by the driver, not the passenger

[lupus]

How would it be upgrading?

It depends HOW a person BELIEVES that is upgrading something; for example, F-16 aircraft was an "upgrade" for USAF; the plane SUCKS!

The whole point of this sort of armour was to negate the need for a shield. There is no way that a warrior wearing armour as protective as a Dendra Panoply would have carried a shield. Personally I think it was worn by charioteers and, after examining the armour worn by other charioteers of other cultures, am leaning towards the idea that it was specifically worn by the driver, not the passenger

That's NOT true at all, my friend! They DID used "Wall-shield" with THIS armor! I'll try to find some images to post... AJAX, was wearing THAT type of armor and the report for his HUGE "Wall-type" shield, is EVERYWHERE in "Iliad"... And Chariot-Knights ALSO USED shields, like the foot-soldiers...

[hoplite14gr]

My friend Romilos,
Dan, knows very well what he is talking about armor.
Linen armor is described for Ajax of Oileas the Lokrian king in Homer´s ILIAD. The late discovered bronze age "Theves arsenal" has preserved 15 layers if linen.
Leather armor might be plausible in classical era but it is just speculations, in contrast with linen that is now backed by evidence.
For the effectiveness of linen check the linothorax thread.

Kind regards

[Dan Howard]

That's NOT true at all, my friend! They DID used "Wall-shield" with THIS armor!

I have spent several years combing the Iliad for shield and armour references and retranslating the original text. I can't find a single instance in which a person is wearing a Dendra Panoply and carrying a full-height shield.

I'll try to find some images to post.

I would be very interested if you can produce an image, made at the time (not modern artistic interpretations), of a Mykenaian carrying a full height shield and wearing a Dendra Panoply.

.. AJAX, was wearing THAT type of armor and the report for his HUGE "Wall-type" shield

Where? Give me one line from the Iliad that suggests Ajax was wearing a Dendra Panoply. The only reference in the entire book to anything even remotely resembling a Dendra Panoply is the armour worn by Phyleides [15.529-534] and, IIRC Homer does not mention whether he carried a shield.

Regarding Ajax's "wall type" shield you will have to wait for my paper to be published. I have expended significant word count dismantling that translation. The only difference between Ajax's shield and many of the other shields described in the Iliad is the number of oxhide layers.

[Zenodoros]

There is reference to Achilles wearing the dendra panoply, for the only place he could be hit was the lower calf and heel, which I believe is usually left bare or unarmoured. We can't trust Homer entirely though, since he did after all live 500 years after the siege most likely occured.

[Dan Howard]

The only thing Homer specifically says about Achilles' armour is that it was made of bronze. There is also a description of him rotating his shoulders around after putting on the cuirass to see whether it fit him properly. Some have suggested that this passage is an indication of armour more complicated than a simple bell cuirass, but it is ridiculous to claim that it must be a Dendra Panoply.

The myth that he could only be injured in the heel is irelevant. According to the myth, his mother dipped him in the River Styx as a babe and it conferred magical protection. It had nothing to do with armour. She held him by the heel so that was the only place that was not magically protected. However, this myth seems to be much later than Homer's time. Homer wrote that the only place Achilles could be injured was "his pride". It wasn't until Ovid's Metamorphoses that we first find Achilles having a vulnerable spot on his body and it was Statius (A.D. 45-96) who first specified that it was his heel.

Regarding the time gap between Homer and the alleged date of the Trojan War, there is mounting evidence to suggest that the chronology we are currently using is wrong. If new proposals are more accurate then Homer could have lived less than two centuries before the events described in the Iliad. Far less time for the stories to be garbled.

[lupus]

Obviously, you guys that making this armors, doing a serious researching...

I'm not saying "I'm right" & "You're wrong" here...

I'm specialize myself in Classic Age, durring "Persian Wars"; I'm ALSO, though, likes and reading about any other warfare Age, like th "Bronze's Age".

My thought/theory about the "Dendron" panoply, is that is "similar" with the full-plate Medival Knights' armor; that armor ALSO was a full-body protection one, but these knights ALSO used shield as well...
Except auxiliary/skirmish troops, I never read or see in painting/sculptures troops NOT using shields! Maybe I'm wrong about the "Wall-shield"; maybe they used that "half-moon Aspis", like in this famous pottery-art of "Bronze-Age", showing full-covered Achaean troops, wearing horned-helmets and holding "half-moon" shields too.

Like "Zenodoros" said, Homer is not ACCURATED to take him TOTALY as a "guide". The man lived AFTER the Trojan War, he wasn't READING his poem (he was singing it from his mind, like medival bard - and we know that bards... "modified" their song, in any NEW audience)...
In "Iliad", in the rhapsody that says about the NEW Achilles' panoply, it says about the cuirass/helmet/spear... and OF COURSE the suberb shield.
Achilles WAS NOT fighting as a footsoldier and yet, he had that GREAT new shield...

Anyway...

Regards.

[hoplite14gr]

My friend Romylos, small corrrection. Achiles dismounts near Skamander and performes horrific carnage on foot. No Homeric hero was averse to fight on foot.

As to the original topic: Our Australian frind did a good job with his linen sub armalis. Spollas is apoen to a lot of speculation and debate.
In the lab of the British Meusum they told me that they cannot make out the organic material found in the inside of armor elements.
Is is open speculation ranging from chiton's cloth threads to linen and leather lining.

Kind regards

[Dan Howard]

My thought/theory about the "Dendron" panoply, is that is "similar" with the full-plate Medival Knights' armor; that armor ALSO was a full-body protection one, but these knights ALSO used shield as well.

As soon as fully articulated plate was developed the shield disappeared from the medieval battlefield. So the Medieval experience can be used to support the argument that the Dendra armour was intended to be used by a warrior without a shield.

[Hoplitesmores]

sorry i didn't make my self clear i meant the spolas/subarmalis the pteryges actually. the one you wear beneath metal armour were the flaps leather or linen? or just one of the two(with the leather having some metal reinforcement like plates).

hey answer me guys!!!!! :wink:

does anyone know?

[hoplite14gr]

There are statues shoing metal elements on the pteruges but I think it is decoration. The material that were made of iopen to speculation with linen having more evidence of support.
Kind regards

[Hoplitesmores]

at last! thankou!

so pteryges from linen or leather are historically correct.

[Dan Howard]

at last! thankou!

so pteryges from linen or leather are historically correct.

No. Stephanos said that the material that pteryges were made from "is open to speculation". There isn't enough evidence to say what is historically correct.

[Tarbicus]

Dendra Panoply ..... Personally I think it was worn by charioteers

Interesting that the plates overlap the way they do. To my mind it means to protect against strikes from lower down as the plates overlap towards the bottom (applying a seg and manica theory). Is the bowl of the helmet also of a less resilient material, in which case it wouldn't need to defend from blows from above?

[Dan Howard]

The armour isn't susceptible to thrusting attacks from any angle unless there is a gap - such as the armpit. It is hard to describe, but the weight of the plates help to hold the overlapping plates snugly close. You can't get an arrow or spearhead between the overlapping plates unless the warrior is prone or the weight is taken off the bottom plate in some other fashion (e.g. grab it and hold it up)