Arm pad construction

[M. Demetrius]

I'm beginning an arm pad, such as we often see on gladiator statues, in pictures, and worn by reenactors. Some of you probably already have these, so can you give me a good idea about stuffing the cloth tube?

As I see it, it's a double tube, with some kind of padding inside, drawn into "earthworm shape" by a series of leather thongs tied under/behind the arm. Evidently, something like this was worn under manicae and behind ocreae.

Any construction tips are welcomed. This is first, then a leather manica for R&D, then a metal manica.

Thanks,
M. Demetrius, aka
Vespa

[Medusa Gladiatrix]

Salve Vespa,

While I have a leather manica one guy of my group has this stuffed linen manica although he bought it and had not done it himself. As you've said it's a double linen tube which is stuffed. But then it is also quilted and you tie the leather straps around the arm at those places where the quilting seam is.

Since this is a ready bought manica I unfortunately don't know of what the stuffing consists. :?

[Gashford]

Hi there

No t exactly historical but I have seen the following used as stuffing.

Flock, its used in teddy bears and such stuff and looks like a massive collection of belly button fluff.

Carpet lining, not the modern rubber stuff but the old fashioned fibrous stuff, quite cheap, looks felt like and a 'git' to sow.

Felt, nice and easy.

I am becomming increasingly convinced that the original materials where sheep skins laid fluffy sides together and then stitched together to form the tubes and then tied on using ties to secure them. Nice and easy, no tying into quilted sections required and lots of slaves about to make sure its all on properly. Just a thought.

All the best

Hope this helps.

[Conal]

Graham

Do you then subscribe to the view that the padding was designed to defend the arm against shield bash rather than weapon attack ?

I have followed the logic of the sheep skin which appear to have increased from fore arm to armpit length then an added shoulder pad of different material ... its the shoulder pad which makes me think that the increase in length was to protect against weapons rather than shields.

The alternative I have come up with is that as weapons became shorter more of the arm went over with a thrust thus requiring more padding and protection for the shoulder was then needed against counter strike.

Opinions from all welome

[Gashford]

It is interesting, we've spoken at length in the past about manica becomming longer and heavier over the centuries.

Any form of padding is effective against certain blows, often surprisingly so. Two good sheep skins, back to back make a formidable barrier. While an accurate lounge would probably penetrate, glancing, misplaced or lucky blows would be generally be stopped from causing injury I am almost certain.

Also, dead arms through pommel strikes, fists, feet, shields and other blunt objects would be stopped ... be them from yourself or your opponent and a proper dead arm can be a real issue.

Fabric and leather are very impressive at stopping force, more than we give credit. Although not Roman, take a look at this: http://www.rdg.ac.uk/engin/home/materia ... poster.jpg and I once read somewhere and saw on TV a padded jacket of horse hair stop a shotgun.

I don't believe that the armour was made to protect you from your own equipment, this is just conjecture though based upon nothing but my own thoughts.

The Romans, generally, don't appear to have been big users of equipment to protect themselves from their own equipment.

I think that most of the armour in the arena was for protection or entertainment values.

EDIT: About the shoulders, I think that the shoulder termination in that cop like device has more to do with a decorated termination of the armour and a support for the now heavier weights through chest and neck strapping than actual protection, which it also offers. But this might be more from that fact that I have built more than I have worn and as such am prone to consider the design reasons for something as opposed to legitimate armoured protection.

Hope this helps, a bit rambly with little or no evidence, just my random thoughts over lunch at work I am afarid is all I can muster at the moment.

[M. Demetrius]

Thanks for the info, folks. I've now made a leather prototype, and have the material for the cloth arm guard I won't be able to assemble it until after the weekend, though, as we're having a bunch of folks over for a campout, and pit firing adventure.

Anyway, for the first one, I think I'll use modern materials, basically some fiber fill like would be used in a quilt, plus a layer of thick material that we got in a second hand store, which appears to be a cotton baby crib pad. I'm thinking the fiber will simulate the wool, and the cotton pad the leather...so for a more accurate one, I think I'll go with the hair-on sheepskin, such as is used for saddle pads. That is a good option for a more historical piece, in that it offers a nice pad, plus a surface that will accept glue to attach it to a metal ocrea or galerus. I wouldn't attach it to a manica, though, because it seems like that would greatly reduce the flexibility.

Pictures follow.

[Conal]

My thoughts were more related to the opponents shield as a thrust attempt may be blocked by an upward movement of the shield edge causing the dead arm or worse.

Boxers armguards developed in the same way as the Caestus became developed the arm pritection went to the armpit.

Maybe they were able to toughen the skins in some way?

[M. Demetrius]

Right, Conal.
Even in our "simulated combat", using needledfelt weapons, the real wood and edging of a shield can inflict considerable harm and discomfort. I suspect the small bones of the arm could be broken accidentally, which is why, even for this mockup of the armpad, I wanted the dense pad/soft pad under the leather. Absorbing a blunt impact is first on our minds, since our swords and such are not really sharp.

Even a spear or trident shaft can knock one off center, and even though we're very careful with each other, in the moment of battle, things happen. We are not choreographing the moves, steps, and attacks. We're simply learning the techniques, and letting the fight take its own course. If we used live steel, we would do things a different way...but the needled felt swords make things safer, and allow for not "pulling" slashes, etc. The worst injuries so far are "rug burns" from a drawing cut with the edge of a gladius. The shield is the most damaging thing we use.

[Gashford]

Hi there, good chat thisone.

Two sheep skins against each other is a formidable pad against any blunt trauma, I have found

As for toughening skins, if you mean leather its straight forwar enough, soak it in luke warm water until the bubble stop coming up, push it into shape on a former and let it dry completly over about three days, so even the former is dry and you will have a rock solid piece of leather. Just be sure to use scabbard butt leather and not chrome died or any such.

I have a very thin piece of scabbard butt leather I have sheped using this technique and it is rock solid, a spear would pass straight through it, but a cut or draw with a sharpened blade would struggle with adequet padding underneath with a live (mobile) victim, as for blunt trauma nd accidental trauma, correct padding underneath would just result in the limb being stunned or simply moved ... its great stuff.

Scabbard butt might be a UK term, basically what you are looking for is buff leather which has been tanned but still has some fibrous movement in the middle. A simple check is to cut away the edge and look, the outside ought to look like leather, but the inner layer, sandwiched between the outside edges is often a little darker but certainly more fibrous looking.

Hope this helps.

[Conal]

What about using horn or some other hard material under the sheepskin ?

Something stab resistant but light ?

[Martin Moser]

Even in our "simulated combat", using needledfelt weapons, the real wood and edging of a shield can inflict considerable harm and discomfort.

I think I know what you mean:
http://ww-photodesign.de/galerien/museu ... en044.html

(I did apolgize afterwards ...)