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Daniel S Peterson · 10-25-2002, 03:37 PM

As of last weekend, reenactment season for us is officially over (we don't do Nativity scenes) until next Spring, and although there will still be much to do over the winter months in making/repairing full-size Roman gear, it is finally time to play with the "little guys" again, which I have had no time to touch at at this year. 
 
Busboy, sorry for not replying, I have just seen your post and inquiry to me now. For you and anyone else interested, here's the story about my legions: 
 
Actually there are THREE full size legions of approximately 5,000 figures each, and all with a cavalry compliment of 120 men each. There is also a 500 figure ala of numidian cavalry and a cohort of Eastern foot sagatarii based on the Airfix archer, but in over 15 different converted positions using a wide variety of figures. 
 
These legions were built not for my museum, but for an important Roman exhibit in Rosenheim in Bavaria, close to the Austrian border. I also supplied a number of full sized figures for this exhibition and there was a great collection of original Roman military equipment there, including objects from the Gutmann and Von Gravert private collections as well as Kalkreise. The idea was to give the visitor some concept of the Roman army lost in the VARUS disaster. The figures were "loaned" so now are back and arrayed in my wargame room. 
 
There are two legions composed largely of Punic War Hat figures, and one mostly from Esci legionaries. The cavalry are mostly conversions from the Hat Punic War Roman cavlary and Celtic Cavalry. 
 
I am able to do rapid conversions (changing heads, arms, torsos, etc) with a unique tool discovered in my reptile-keeping hobby. It is a hand held, battery operated device designed to melt the tips of the sharp claws of birds and lizards. At the push of a button you are able to create a tiny pinpoint of redhot heat ideal to permanently weld polyethylene figure heads to bodies etc, and much quicker and more securely than the traditional "pinning" method. 
 
This huge army was painted in a an assembly line method. First, the figures were all mass dipped in a special automotive industry primer designed to make enamels and laquers adhere to the painted rubber bumpers of certain late model cars. This amazing chemical allows you to paint your soft plastic figures with enamels and they will NEVER flake off! All of the figures were sprayed flesh first and then subesequent features were hand-painted on. Every figure has an inidividual sheet steel base covered with railroad grass flocking. All figures were then positioned in their units on thin plastic magnetic sheeting. This way individual figures and be easily removed when taking casualties in wargames. For wargaming, the units are reduced to 1/4 scale, so a century has 20 figures, and my three full scale legions are 12 wargaming legions. 
 
I have worked closely with HAT and first suggested and have helped devleop many of their ancient figure lines. I anticipate the arrival of many of the new sets to fill out my Roman Armies, and build a huge Germanic/Dacian army. 
 
Besides Romans I do many other periods in 1:72 and have collected these all of my life, since the third grade, when I first determined their superiority over bulky, impractical "big" (1/32) type "Army Men" . While I have some compatible metals, my armies are predominately plastic, which I greatly prefer over metal, particularly after discovering the ideal method to paint them. Anyway enough for now. I'll keep an eye on this category now, and will contribute from time to time. If you have any questions, drop me a line here. 
 
Dan.

10-25-2002, 08:03 PM

Dan, welcome to Historical Gaming & Modelling....lol 
 
Is there somewhere we can see this display of yours? I honestly can't imagine what it looks like, and would LOVE to see it. Any images online at all? 
 
Thanks. 
Magnus/Matt 
Optio 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"

Daniel S Peterson · 10-26-2002, 05:50 PM

Matt, the case was over 40 feet long, so impossible to photograph it all in one shot. I will try to dig out some pictures. I did take a video of the whole thing, but will have to go through all of my unlabled tapes to find it. 
 
Dan

10-27-2002, 11:39 PM

From your descriptions Dan, I can imagine that the full display of your miniature legions would be an impressive sight! 
 
What gaming system do you follow for your wargames? Is 1/72 scale the same as 25-28mm scale? I'm more familiar with the metric measurement scales. 
 
Any pics of your minis would be appreciated, if only to have an idea of what full legions in miniature look like. Most players would collect according to some sort of ratio, like 1:4, or 1:10, but three full legions! Wow. 
 
BTW, I gather from your painting method that you're more a 'quantity over quality' painter? Correct me if I'm wrong, no offense intended if you're actually a very meticulous painter. M It's just that I assume you'd need a fairly quick and easy method to churn out the number of minis that you do, details be damned. Myself, I'm a fairly slow painter and hence take awhile to assemble a sizable force, though they sure look good! Recently I've decided to cut (small) corners where I can to save time without compromising painting quality; a delicate balancing act of quantity vs quality. 
 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=auxilia>Auxilia</A> at: 10/28/02 12:42:00 am

Caius Fabius · 10-28-2002, 12:27 AM

1/72 is also called 20mm. "Just before class started, I looked in the big book where all the world's history is written, and it said...." Neil J. Hackett, PhD ancient history, professor OSU, 1987

10-28-2002, 12:37 AM

You can use an assembly line in painting and still be very detailed...its just a matter of, "ok, today I paint this many figures with this color...and DON'T botch up or ya gotta go back and touch up the last color...schmuck!" 
 
Thanks very much for your post Mr. Peterson. Its odd, I first heard of you in sort of an awed way when I began my study of Roman military history about two years ago, then when I began the painting of my own figures I happened to find a note on the HaT "everything toy soldiers" page that you had written. (which is where my mistakes were made, 2 legions rather than 3, ect.) I thought it was odd that I kept seeing this expert on Roman military history where ever I turned. Then, my collegue Brasidius happened to point me two these boards and here I am in a respectful awe addressing you directly. I am a lucky kid, thats for sure. 
 
I have a few brief comments/questions completely off topic. Fist, there is no need to apologize for the delay in your reply, sir. I am certian you are a busy man. I recall reading that you are a Lt. Colonel or a Colonel in the U.S. Army in addition to your other duties and hobbies. If I have this correct you are truely a man of many tallents. I am hoping to persue a career in the U.S. Army as well, so if I al correct in my information I'd be very interested to ask a few basic qestions in that regard as well, though this is not the place. If you're able, I can ask in the off topic board, or you could e-mail me at "[email protected]," though if I were as notable as yourself, I'd be cautious with my e-mail address. I am flexable. 
 
Now, back to the figures. I would be facinated to see your awesome legions. At present my collection is a single box of Italeri late Republican, and 2 ESCI Imperial, one set of Italeri Roman cavalry, a box of Italeri Celts, and some HaT Punic War Roman command figures to fill out the set. Those are my painted figures anyway, I have more than a dozen boxes of unpainted figures yet. Hopefully I'll have some more pictures of my small assembly in a few days, rather than just scans of a few figures. 
 
Your welding invention sounds most useful sir. I've attempted to perform similar operations with a cigerette lighter and a paperclip, with mixed results. I actually achieve good plastic welding results with a magnifying glass and a sunny day, but work on 1/72 figures with such a method would be impossible. 
 
What do you think of Hat's work? The previews of their upcomming segmented armor legions seem very very good, though their sculpting seems just a bit less in "sharpness" than Italeri or the now out ESCI. Still very good though, in 1/72 not many people look to see if there are sculpted eyes in the sockets like I do. The complaint I have with the Italeri Caesarian era Romans is half of the men, in addition to holding their scutum over their heads in a rather awkward looking fassion, have their swords on the wrong side. With much gnashing of teeth and superglue (which doesn't work too well) I fixed both problems and actually produced a figure that is properly prepared to thrust with his gladius. Pics to come hopefully this week. 
 
What other periods of 1/72 scale figures do you have sir? I got my start with U.S. Civil War figures back about the 3rd Grade myself. Currently, in addition to my 1/72 forces, I also am modeling AFVs in 1/35. 
 
Thanks very much for your time sir, I've already learned a great deal!

Daniel S Peterson · 10-31-2002, 01:29 AM

Hi Guys, I will try to answer your questions in their order of appearace. 
 
Auxilia, 
My gaming scale is 1:4 as this is the smallest you can go and still have a century look relatively "visual correct". This is very common in films. You will see that the centuries in films like Spartacus and Masada have these reduced size centuries but they look "right". The rules have been developed by Steve Greeley, also Optio of LEG XIIII. They are the most realistic there is but not marketed yet. The system incudes a map system/playing board covering the entire Roman empire and adjacent lands. It is really quite remarkable. The combat rules are much akin to fantasy role playing in tht each figure represents a real soldier, rather than merely a symbol for block of troops represented by the stand. 
 
I will try find my pictures to post of the Legion exhibit. Oh, I made a complete cohort of Esci troops marching with their impedimenta packs. I used the walking legionary, cut of his head and welded on the head of the helmetless "tribune", bent his arm, added the pack, shield cover, etc. Such a marching column looks very impresssive. Each of the 50 scorpions per legion have a cart as well. 
 
The basic troops have a relatively basic paint job. Because they are in dense formations, shoulder to shoulder (unless light troops), you could not see fine details anyway. Figures like commanders, cavalry, etc that are not in dense formations are painted better. 
In some cases I have given the prior centuries of the maniple standards with the manus and the posterior ones the spearpoint. 
 
As Caius said 1/72 is often referred to as 20mm, but the average 1/72 figure today is usually a true 25mm. Measure one and you'll see. Metal figures have the illusion of being begger because of the usual oversized heads, dwarf legs etc. This is the result of most metal figures being hand scuplted whereas plastic figures from much larger masters that are reduced by pentagraph when the metal molds are cut. 
 
Busboy, no I am not a Colonel, far from it. I joined the Army right out of high school, thinking I would stay in one tour, get out and use the GI Bill to go to college and study achaeology or another history related field. From my first assignment on though, I was directed to work in unit museums. After 9 years and the rank of Staff Sergeant I was offered a DOD civilian job so I could more permanently stay at the museum. My civilian grade now is roughly equivalent to a Major. I didn't realize this until Desert Storm and they issued me a Geneva Convention card that said this. This isn't for 'rank" purposes, but for how you are to be treated if a prisoner of war. Ironically , I nearly got a chance to use this card, when I walked into a bunker looking for artifacts in what we though was a deserted Iraqi base, and practically ran into about 20 Iraqi soldiers hiding in it. Fortunately, they wanted to surrender, and I think Imay have been the only civilian in Desert Storm to capture enemy troops. It was practically the same as still being in the Army though, wore the sme uniform and carried a weapon like everybody else. I had many other adventures there, including a near fatal helicopter collision, but all in all, it was probably the most memorable time of my life... ready to do it again! 
 
I agree that Hat figures are not the quality of Esci, Zevda, or Italeri, but the whole operation is quite remarkable when you consider this is essentially the "hobby buisness" of a fellow figure collector As such, he has to go with cheaper sculptors. 
 
I have a little of everything in 1/72, but my major interests next to Roman are Civil War, Hundred Years War (love the new Italerilis), 30 Years War, bronze age Egyptian/middle east (Atlantic and conversions), Greek and Persian Wars. With all of my other hobies though, the isnot enough time to paint them all so very interested in the Chinese thing. 
 
I think that covered about everything.... all the best, Dan

11-12-2002, 04:31 AM

Hello, sorry for the delayed reply. School's been hecktic and work ain't cooperative either. 
 
I've borrowed my father's fine digital camera...now I just have to take all of my pictures and upload them. I'll get 'em up one day. (grin). 
 
Thanks for sharing the nature of your military career. Perhaps I'm too eager for some image of glory in battle, but for some reason I just feel the army is where I belong. We'll see if I hold that love 10 years from now when I'm in the army (either as an officer as I hope, or otherwise.) 
 
I'd be very interested to see all of your collection, I'll try to post my small collection as well. I do a pretty good job for 1/72 soldiers if I say so myself. Civil War soldiers are very fun because they can get so flashy. Lots of colors, oddities, gleaming steel, ect. 
 
I look forward to sharing pics.

Daniel S Peterson · 11-12-2002, 08:50 PM

Bvsboy, 
saw some interesting stuff at the big figure show I mentioned. The new Italeri Union Artillery are great. Finally a 1/72 plastic Napoleon, Parrot and Mortar. I believe the mold was made by esci as it has their characteristics. I think this was made by Esci before they stopped. It is definiately the same sculptor, better than the new "big head" look of the Italeri production. The Franks and Vikings from Russia is a very interesting set too. A lot of good conversion potential. The Zevda Roman skeleton warriors have beautiful equipment, what a shame it was for fantasy figures. 
 
I hope by the time you join the army there will still be openings for "humans", when you consider all the unmanned drones, etc they are developing now! 
 
Dan.

11-13-2002, 07:15 AM

Heh, I hope there's still a place for me too sir. In fact, that is why I hesitated about deciding to join the forces. If I knew with certianty that this was what I should do before, I would have been busy grooming myself better for West Point. Now, I doubt I have a snowflake's chance in hell of getting in, but I still intend to try. I'm a proven leader at work, a proven achedemic in college, and lots of people can attest to my downright arrogent competitive nature...would they overlook the fact that I'm not a valedictorian eaglescout? Based on the statistics I've seen, not likely, but we'll see. 
 
I'm personally hoping to get into armored cavalry. Scout and persuit, that's the life for me! (grin) 
 
Great info from the show sir! I bet you know, but it looks like Italeri has taken up the old ESCI Imperial Roman and Barbarian molds. This is good news, ESCI originals are getting harder and more expensive to find on e-bay these days, and they're pretty good figures too. I personally am very impressed with the skill of sculpture of italeri figures. I have seen some critiques of historical accuracy on some things (on Civil War infantry, officer's pistol butts facing the wrong way, bayonette scabbards and primer pounches on wrong sides, ect) but I still love the feel of them. 
 
...though it is a pain to have to swap half of the swords on the Italeri Republican Romans from one hip to the other...

Daniel S Peterson · 11-15-2002, 09:58 PM

Bvsboy, 
Yes I like the esci Romans too (I should, since I've painted around 5,000!). My greatest disappointment with them though is the "Trajan's Columns style segmentata instead of Corbridge. Of course, it is possible that there indeed was a style of segmentata at least similar to the Trajans column typee. On that small a figure, this is not that big a deal. I will be curious to see the new restrikes, for as you may know, the mold on the original was broken. This is why on the last production, there was a lot of flash, and a seperate partial sprue had to be added. I'm hoping if they do that part of the mold over again, they'll maybe cut a few new figures. 
 
Back to Army, after I finished basic training, I received the offer to go to the West Point prep school. that would have been two years. Then the academy would be four more, and then another automatic obligation for four more. That was a total of 10 years, and at the time I wasn't sure if I wanted to make that commitment and turned it down. As it was, I stayed in that long anyway. Sometimes I wish I would have "went for it" though as you no, everyone doesn't make it to graduation. If I could do it again, I'd proably try. 
 
Dan.

11-19-2002, 08:12 PM

I knew something about the mold being damaged, yes, but I lack the insight you have on seemly all matters concerning anything Roman. (grin) I knew that some of the last production runs were issued with a partial sprue, that was about all I knew. 
 
It does seem ashame that the figures are based more on Trajan's column than archeology, but its not as bad as it could be. One of my required texts for Latin class is a coffee table book on all things Roman. The 5 pages devoted to the military are full of inaccuracies, right down to a photograph of a full sized mockup of a legionary from some British museum (photo circa 1970 as I recall.) 
 
That picture follows the column almost exclusively, right down to odd shoulder laminations and undersized (and not rectangular, but rather Augustian) scutum. Oddly enough, the figure wears an accurate Coolus helmet...it looks out of place (and certianly from the wrong time.) 
 
Looking at my ESCI Romans, I'm actually pretty satisfied with their detail. Yes, it could be better but all things considered they are very good. With some anal painting details, you can make the lorica look fairly close to a Corbridge model. The cheakpieces are small on the helmets, but they're still pretty close to Imperial Gallic. Scutum need an umbo, which is a pain too, but they are the right size and look snazzy painted. 
 
To me, a big pain was painting one of the laminations gold (or "brass" to be more accurate, but I used gold paint...) to represent the belt. Another pain is the lack of a soldier thrusting with the sword, they are all downward slashing, and I can see no effective way of working with the post. 
 
Also annoying are the small crests on the two centurion figures. Still, a bit of crest shaped paper fixes this. I also have found it possible to rotate one of these figure's crests to produce an Optio. 
 
All and all, I'm pretty satisfied with the ESCI figures. We'll have to see how good HaT's Romans actually are when they come out.

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