Hard riding no saddles or stirrups

[Woadwarrior]

i read somewhere that the romans had no saddles or stirrups
this suprised me greatly

i rode on a horse with a saddle and was very sore after a few hours
how were the romans able to charge into battle?
how did they control the horse and not fall off?
would riding back then be extremeyl uncomfortable???

[Jona Lendering]

Indeed, the Romans and Greeks did not have stirrups, but they did have saddles. One type of saddle had four 'horns' (I do not know another word) and one could sit more or less comfortably. But even without saddle, splendid things could be done: cf.


Or look at this lovely relief from Rome.

The introduction of the stirrup took place in the fifth-seventh century; details are unclear. My personal theory is that the Huns had some type of simple stirrup. (Go here for an earlier discussion.)

[Eleatic Guest]

Indeed, the Romans and Greeks did not have stirrups, but they did have saddles. One type of saddle had four 'horns' (I do not know another word) and one could sit more or less comfortably.

When were those saddles introduced? My infallible Osprey collection shows these saddles only for the Late Roman period (hope my memory is equally infallible). Were they a Roman speciality?

[Woadwarrior]

also ive seen some dramatic recreations, and pictures and paintings of roman battles

and the calvary (and infantry) just smash ruthlessly into the enemy line

i mean the horses just trample everybody, and the rider trys to cut everybody down with a sword

but a question popped into my mind, is that what happens in the real life battles of the romans ?

because i have this idea that the horses charge and then perhaps slow down, and the rider proceeds to fight very slowly and cautiously
does a horse just charge regardless of an enemy horse or man standing in its way???

i dont knoe much about horses, or a huge squadron of calavary for that matter

and this DOES NOT count phalanx pikemen, because of course a horse, and the rider wont be dumb enough to charge a wall of spears.

regular sword infantry with shields

please reply

[Praefectusclassis]

You can clearly see the horned saddle on some tombstones, e.g.Titus Flavius Bassus.
Most Roman cavalry, however, probably did not attack massed infantry in a head-on charge à la Gladiator or Lord of the Rings.

[Cornelius Quintus]

what happens in the real life battles of the romans ?
because i have this idea that the horses charge and then perhaps slow down, and the rider proceeds to fight very slowly and cautiously
does a horse just charge regardless of an enemy horse or man standing in its way???

Ave Francis,

good question! Experts of cavalry tactics may have detailed answers for different cavalry attacking modes? Did the cavalry break into the enemies formation? Or did they almost attack fleeing troops ore troops that lost close formation (perhaps being scared by the charging cavalry?)

From medieval times on, I've read battle horses were well trained just to ignore anything than their rider's commands. So they would run trough lines of men or fire, like horses performing stunts in our days.

On the other hand, a horse in the center of a galloping formation has no other possibility, than running forward :wink:

Were blinkers already known in Roman times?

[Chuck Russell]

my wife learned bareback before she was allowed to use a saddle. she said she still preferes it. i think once you learn to ride withough one its just as easy as if you had one. and yes she did more than ride, she raced, barral raced, jumped, horse danced etc.

so i think the romans did fine without a saddle or without the sturrips. i'm sure both helped when they came along but no worries without them

[hoplite14gr]

You might get some answers here:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... c&start=40
Kind regards

[Kate Gilliver]

Have a look at Ann Hyland's books Equus: the horse in the Roman world, and Training the Roman cavalry. The author is a professional horsewoman and made considerable use of Peter Connolly's reproduction Roman horned saddles in her work. Arrian's description of the hippica gymnasia or cavalry exercises, which is at the core of her second book, shows that the cavalry didn't potter around poking spears at targets but charged about at full pelt hurling javelins into them a la T Flavius Bassus.
If I remember correctly from his article about the Roman saddle in the journal Britannia, Peter used sculptural evidence from at least as early as the triumphal arch at Orange which is Augustan / Tiberian, suggesting that the horned saddle was in use by that time.
Surely there's something about the saddle in Roman Military Equipment II, which was awaiting my return from holiday on monday?

Kate Gilliver

[Woadwarrior]

so on the issue of calvary charges

so u guys are certain that during roman battles that the calvary would slow down majorly and just used its speed to scare and lower morale, and it wouldnt be like ala gladiator, or lotr
and i didnt bring up anything on movies so

dont hate me
i dont want to get kicke dof this site

[floofthegoof]

I've discussed this topic alot on game forums, since in games cavalry formations are used to just smash through formations of infantry. I believe that the use of cavalry in a real battle would have to be very specific in order not to expend the horse at the first charge. Even if the horse was trained to commit suicide, it is a creature of flesh and blood and will be rendered useless after a broken leg. Certainly, there are critical moments in battle where you are willing to expend a well trained horse, but is that every battle? Is a horse a one use item?

I think of them like my 1982 Honda Accord. She's a powerful 2 ton beast, but if I drove here into a formation of infantry, in spite of the damage she would no doubt cause, I'm sure I wouldn't be able to take her to work again before extensive repairs.

[Kate Gilliver]

Right, when I start teaching again in Sept. I will suggest that one of my students writes a dissertation on Roman cavalry charges!
In the meantime... in both the movies you mentioned, Francis, the cavalry doesn't charge densely packed infantry - in Gladiator they charge infantry already engaged in hand-to-hand combat which is ok (though charging through woods is less ok); the Rohan cavalry charge in RoTK is against the flank of the orc (?) army, a fairly standard manoeuvre in antiquity. However, the original sources are the best way to study the ancient world (and as you're in Egypt I hope you're reading Herodotus book 2!!). At Pharsalus, cavalry charge cavalry, and once Pompey's have been disposed of, Caesar's cavalry tears into the infantry on the wing of Pompey's line. On the other hand, Arrian clearly expected the Alan cavalry to charge directly at his densely packed line of infantry, as described in his 'order of march against the Alans'.
Rich, in the rather basic game I have (Legion), if you throw your cavalry against a legion it'll almost certainly get wiped out, but IF you can get them to attack the legion in the flank, you can sometimes wipe out the legion, so (very!) slightly more realistic. Whilst I am slightly worried by your fantasies about your antique Honda :wink: , I agree that cavalry, like all branches of the Roman army, wouldn't be thrown away like that. Different troop types, including cavalry, were generally used appropriately, depending on the composition of the Roman army, the enemy army, terrain, weather etc. etc. There's a load of stuff in Onasander's treatise on generalship about this, and it crops up again and again in literary accounts of battles.

Kate Gilliver

[Dan Howard]

I'd be wary of any of Hyland's work. Virtually every word she writes has the subtext: "aren't oriental horses wonderful compared to those horrible European breeds." She knows more about modern breeds than virtually any other person alive but she has little idea about Medieval horses and even less about Medieval warfare. A far better Medieval source would be Andrew Ayton's "Knights and Warhorses: Military Service and the English Aristocracy under Edward III". Though this doesn't help much for a Roman context. I haven't specifically read her book on Roman horses but, after reading some of her other work, I'd have doubts on its usefulness.

[varia cassia]

Greetings,

Having been a rider for some years, I can tell you it's alot easier riding bareback than it would be with a saddle. Horses can be quite comfortable once you're used to riding. I prefer bareback or just a saddlepad. You have great contact with the horse directly and you can feel any of the slightest changes in your horse's movements, etc.

Riding with a saddle without stirrups does take some getting used to, but as with anything that you spend a great deal of time doing, it gets to be second nature. I spent alot of time learning to ride without stirrups; it teaches you to have a good seat and be a better rider.

[Alexandr K]

Hi,

Having been a rider for some years, I can tell you it's alot easier riding bareback than it would be with a saddle. Horses can be quite comfortable once you're used to riding. I prefer bareback or just a saddlepad. You have great contact with the horse directly and you can feel any of the slightest changes in your horse's movements, etc.

OK. But is it the same, when you're fully equipped, with mail armour and heavy shield in your hand? I've read Ann Hyland's book (Equus: the horse in the Roman world) and she doesn't think so. I personally can't say, for I've never ridden a horse.

I believe that the use of cavalry in a real battle would have to be very specific in order not to expend the horse at the first charge. Even if the horse was trained to commit suicide, it is a creature of flesh and blood and will be rendered useless after a broken leg.

I agree here. I'd add that not only horse is in danger in direct charge. If you would charge a densely packed mass of soldiers with weapons and if they wouldn't run away before contact and if you would crash with them (like in LOTR), such a situation would be similarly devastating for the infantry soldiers in first ranks, your horse and yourself. You can (given the momentum of your charge) smash say 2 or 3 infantry soldiers, but with the collision, your horse will with great probability get seriously injured (and we must not forget, that the infantrymen will use their weapons). He will fall and you will fall with him. So now you are laying shattered in the middle of the enemy formation...

Marcus Junkelmann wrote in "Die Reiter Roms", that he was able to compel his horse to run down single scattered men. But when he tried to drive into a body of closely packed men, the horse turned away.

Greetings
Alexandr