Conclusion to the problem of tunic color

[Caratacus]

Yes, Graham, I had heard that one about the plastic bag footwear. My friends never mentioned this one to me, although they did say that the 'direct weld' boots they were issued with simply fell apart after a couple of weeks use. One chap did say that he saw a Para stripping boots off a dead Argentinian soldier after measuring his own feet against them. Mind you, this is a Marine talking about a Para - so it may just be service rivalry!!!!

Of course, you are probably right about the appearence of the Guard depending on who was present at that particular event. I have several groups of photos of the Guard, taken both at Caerleon and at other events and they never look completely the same.

I think that there is a special problem where the army of Imperial Rome is concerned. So much of what the Romans did is mirrored in the armies of modern states that there is a tendency to think that if they were so alike in some ways, then they were alike in all ways - and there is no real justification for that belief. One of my little 'tricks' when giving talks at the museum in Caerleon is to read out the OOB for a Roman legion but then point out that it is almost identical to that of the British force that retook the Falklands (OK, Blues & Royals light tanks as the recce element instead of cavalry scouts, but you get the idea). Virtually every element of modern British Army practice can be recognised within a Roman legion - but it's still going to create pitfalls if you think that this is necessarily so! I am at some pains to make this clear to my audience.

Of course, it's not just the Imperial army that gets this treatment. The recent BBC film about Hannibal had every single Roman soldier dressed in red! However, I did think that someone had been to considerable trouble for this film as there were so many details that they had obviously researched, even down to the proper form of the senatorial footwear. Maybe there's hope for us all yet?

[Carus Andiae]

I've heard another idea advanced, namely that when these films were originally made in B&W (in silent film days), the monochromatic films in use then were only sensitive to blue light. In order to make the Roman troops 'stand out', they were dressed in red. Using monchromatic films, this would make them appear as thought they were dressed in black tunics. By then the tradition had been established so when they moved over to polychromatic B&W, the same costumes were employed as well as when they moved into colour.


(Caratacus)

Interesting, thanks. I understand that's the same reason why early Daleks in Doctor Who had some rather... interesting colour schemes.

[Carus Andiae]

In the recent series 'Rome' all the infantry were equipped far too uniformly. In 'Ben-Hur', Quo Vadis, 'The Robe', 'Demetrius and the Gladiators' the soldiers all had white tunics while the soldiers in Judaea in 'The Robe' actually wore blue. In Spartacus light brown, it is only in Cleopatra that you see Roman soldiers in red and marines in blue. The armour etc... was pretty good for it's day too. In 'The Fall of The Roman Empire' they are a mixture of browns with the soldiers in the East wearing a distinctive uniform to those in the West. While eagles and out stretched arm salutes had obvious connotation's to post war audiences I know of no attempt to make the uniforms look really fascist until 'Gladiator'.

You mean you're not blaming the movies?! Heresy!!! :lol:

P.S After reading some of the above posts it is obvious that my next book should be Ospreys 'Roman Movie Uniforms'. :wink:

Now there's an idea... :roll:

[drsrob]

Graham Sumner wrote: "I personally would like Osprey to one day publish all three volumes of Roman Military Clothing in one edition as they have done with some of their other titles. This would give me the chance to include some new paintings and give me the opportunity to make any relevant changes"

Of course, Michael Simkins said that Osprey didn't even tell him when they republished his books, and combined them with others. His lament was that there were so many changes he wanted to make to bring his works up to date, but Osprey obviously didn't want to pay for any additions or corrections.

I suspect that once the company has the work, you won't see many changes in future releases, unless they get a new author/title.... (Like the MAA book on the Napoleonic Brunswick Army).

:? (

Well, I know of several titles that have been rewritten and/or supplied with new artwork at some point.

[Graham Sumner]

Mike wrote:

Graham - I don't know if you have a copy 'on your shelf', but the book I was referring to is by Monica Silveira Cyrino and is entitled "Big Screen Rome", published by Blackwell in 2005, ISBN 1-4051-1684-6 (pbk). It is obviously a collection of lecture notes together with student exercises. It does, however, make for an interesting read. One can disagree with some of her viewpoints. I'm not at all sure that some of these films were made with the deliberate slant she infers - they are, after all, entertainments are were designed to make money! Despite this, there is a thread that runs through what she says that makes some sense.

Yes I do have that book and it is an enjoyable read. I can not really comment on tunic colours in epic movies pre war made in black and white. However it does bring to mind another favourite subject of mine WWI aviation. If you think the tunic debate is bad enough you should read the discussions over aircraft colour schemes. These are often based on the tonal shades in black and white photographs! The colour schemes regularly change on famous aircraft as a new theory comes to light. One interesting fact is that yellow appears black in black and white!

Getting back to topic I think the documents show that the average soldier did not have much say in how much he had to pay for his clothing whether it was dyed or not. It would appear this did cause resentment at times and almost certainly led to soldiers finding various methods of improving their income. I think even in the Acts of the Apostles one soldier asks how he can be a good Christian and the response is, is that he should be content with his pay and not resort to extortion and abuse of civilians.

I did come across one other intriguing document which mentioned white cloaks and ........ tunics. Yes there really was a gap in the papyrii at the vital spot!

At the battle of Second Koroneia, Xenophon who was there, describes the army of Aegsilaos as being one solid mass of bronze and crimson we have a similar quote from Quintilianus (Declamationes, III Declamatio, Pro Milite Contra Tribunum)) who describes the Roman soldier of the late Republic as 'wearing the terrible dress of the god of war', which is shown as a red colour

Graham.

[Carus Andiae]

I think even in the Acts of the Apostles one soldier asks how he can be a good Christian and the response is, is that he should be content with his pay and not resort to extortion and abuse of civilians.

It's in Luke 3:14, actually, and the soldiers are talking to John the Baptist. But your point still stands.

[Graham Sumner]

David wrote:

It's in Luke 3:14, actually, and the soldiers are talking to John the Baptist. But your point still stands.
_________________

Thanks for that David, saves me having to look it up!

Graham.

[Robert]

Which is all very touching and patriotic (having a red, white and blue flag meself), but still doesn't get the guy's question answered!
I shall NOT state I have anywhere near the expertise to contradict anyone, but consider this line of though, just for the sake of it. I have often wondered why economics are not often taken into account when considering issue's in reconstruction. Human nature has not changed that much over the past 2000 years when it comes to spending denari.

Based on the assumption that colored cloth is more expensive then uncolored cloth, this because a production step and the addition of valuable resources (dye) has been skipped, a practically minded person faced with a decision on what color to wear will make an economical evaluation. The tunic under review is "battle-wear", worn under an armor of some sort, often of metal. This will cause abrasion and stains. Then there are the stains of sweat and dirt (and the occasional blood, hopefully the other guy's). Tunics thus worn will need regular washing and we know the Romans were a comparatively clean people, employing rather aggressive means of cleaning their cloth. A dyed fabric would in a short period of time lose much color and be reduces to a "pinkish rag" (Rufus in drags!). I would therefor think it does not make a whole lot of sense to invest more then necessary in something which is relatively short-living in an environment not high on fashion standards. This line of thought would favor the white or natural tunic for the common infantry clodhopper.
However, when out of uniform/off duty, it is very possible a soldier owned a red tunic marking him as being on his own time to prevent some centurion nabbing him for loitering. With far less wear, tear and tumble, Rufus could smoke up the vicus looking flashy, without the need to send his tunic to the cleaners any time he was out.

[Robert]

Come to think of it, the enemy would rarely see the color of a soldiers tunic, because of that big slab of painted wood thrust out in front of him, covering his body from knee to shoulder. This is what I feel makes a formation of Roman soldiers look positively intimidating.

There is another argument for a uniform shield color I suddenly thought of (but then I'm very new to this excellent forum and this may be very old hat), which is best seen when looking at zebra (sorry, I'm a biologist by training). When they stand together, their stripes seem to merge, making it harder for a predator to identify prey. When applied to a wall of identical shields, it makes it very hard to focus on an individual enemy or get a point of reference when riding or running in.

[Lothia]

I have read through all the posts on this (what is it, a Forum?) [funny word to use in the Roman Army Talk] - but I have spent lots (that means LOTS) of time studying ancient Rome.
An argument I once sat in on concerned colors used in Medieval Europe. One side said, since heraldry only used certain colors, those must have been the only colors available. You can see how silly that seems just by thinking how many plants and other sources of colors there are available just in Europe.
On the color of the Army tunics. Please remember that just because a soldier may have enlisted in Yourk, been trained in Wales then found himself in Gaul does not mean he sends back to York every time he has a rip in his tunic. He will buy one where ever he is.
That means if he wanted a blue tunic, but the factory (fabricae) in Lyons could even make a blue tunic, I would bet a dollar to a doughnut that it wasn’t the same shade blue he bought in York.
And how about patching holes in his tunic? Could he find fine blue thread in the Aquitine?
I believe that the units were more distinguished by the marking on their shields than the colors of their tunics.

[M. Demetrius]

Could he find fine blue thread in the Aquitine?

Yep. The warp is full of thread. Just unravel a length and sew on. Perfect color match to what it came from, I reckon.

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Lothia/Tom Chelmowski,

Would you please add your real name to your signature? It's a rule here on RAT.

[Lothia]

The warp is full of thread. Just unravel a length and sew on. Perfect color match

Well, I guess that tells everyone just how much sewing and mending I do.

I still think they were a motley looking crew after a season of campaigning, Hefting roofing tiles, digging ditches and charging through crowds of wild-haired Picts.

Tom Chelmowski

[M. Demetrius]

I think I read somewhere that legionaries were issued a set number of tunics per year as part of their pay. They surely made patches, cleaning rags, focalae, etc., from torn or badly stained garments.

Everybody they encountered, friend or foe wove gaments from linen or wool. Tunics could have been obtained pretty much anywhere from weavers and clothiers, made from indigenous materials. Wool was available in the natural colors of brown, black, off white, and various blends of those colors, and the lighter shades could have been dyed in hundreds of colors, depending on the choice of the purchaser. Maybe they were standard, maybe they weren't, but that's still up for considerable debate, until they find that scroll from the quartermaster that says something like, "...and an order of 500 military tunics of the standard {color} and {measurement} length, as we have always ordered...."

Till then, pick what the leader of your particular group has chosen, for whatever reason, good or bad, and go from there. If you are meeting with another group, let the leaders settle beforehand what the uniform of the day will be, and act accordingly. It's not worth fighting over, I think.

[QFirmus]

there are Roman representations of soldiers in red, pink, green, white, pale blue and medium blue tunics. That said it is obvious that certain occasions justified the wearing of 'shining' white tunics (presumably whiter than plain old alba)

Possibly OT, but I had posted on Roman cloth colors yesterday in the Civ secition, as I am trying to get a range of colors for Roman cloth (civilians, not just Military).

Medium blue? Yellow? Green? Any more info on shades and colors?

Thanks,