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JRSCline · 07-09-2002, 07:28 PM

Any Siege of Jerusalem players here? 
 
I have a ton of Roman wargames. Republic of Rome -- very tough to learn but wicked backstabbing fun once you've mastered it. Siege of Jerusalem -- funny thing, it still seems to be going on in 2002 E EM Imperium Romanum II -- never actually played it but uh, looks like fun. Then there are the mini-games out of "Strategy & Tactics" magazines, like "Trajan," etc. 
 
Do we have any games designers here? I am drafting a concept for a gladiatorial combat game based on the ideas and reconstructions of Junkelmann. Could sure use some help with how to work the mechanics of a playable combat system. I've been thinking cards instead of dice -- charts are such a turn-off since I tried to assimilate Advanced Squad Leader. It made my head hurt there were so many freaking charts and rules and exceptions to rules. Something percentage based, along the lines of RuneQuest, might be apropos. 
 
Thoughts? 
 
Cheers 
Jenny

07-10-2002, 10:16 AM

Well, I'm no game designer, but I have made a lot of modifications to different rules, and a few (official) scenarios for role playing games, so I guess I have some experience with this. I am currently one of the playtesters of a few WAB supplements (including "Punic Wars" - Yay!). 
My first thought was: Do you know "Gunslinger", Jenny? 
Card-based, few tables and fast and furious gameplay. Some variant of this could work out very well indeed, if you want a breakdown of how it works, let me know. 
I have just ordered "Morituri Te Salutant" from Gladiator Games (and some gladiators, and an Arena), if you want to look it over there is a playtest version at: 
 
www.gladiatorgames.co.uk/gladrag.htm 
 
It seems a good game, but it does also seem a bit heavy on the tables. 
As you've probably gathered by now, I'd be quite happy to give a hand with this game, sounds interesting.

JRSCline · 07-10-2002, 06:20 PM

Ok, great, got a fax machine? I suppose I could just scan my handwritten notes. They are legible even by my scribbly standards. We can kick some ideas around. 
 
Do you know about the RAT Chat Room? Jasper set it up for us. Jasper will you please refresh us on how to use it? 
 
All we have to do is set a time and link up there to brainstorm, after you have my notes in hand. 
 
Cheers 
Jenny

***Praefectusclassis*** · 07-10-2002, 06:57 PM

Bidibidibidi...by your command...RATChat 
Greets 
 
Jasper

07-10-2002, 08:26 PM

Just a thought I'd like to share about your game design. I've played wargames for years now and one thing I know that weighs heavily in my consideration when I purchase one is replayability. While card based systems are good, you may leave one group of folks "out in the cold" namely those who play games solitare much of the time because of lack of opponents and/or locality. I know that I think about the solitare qualities of a game myself and sometimes don't buy card based ones for that reason. Depending on what the goal of your game is, you might be able to keep charts and/or rules to a manageable level. Using dice also entices the solitare gamer because the dice make things unpredictable. These are just thougths I'd thought I'd share. I've only designed small scale games for the strategy club I run at the school where I teach so I'm really just giving you an amateurs point of view. Hope this is of some help. 
 
Tim

Caius Fabius · 07-10-2002, 09:53 PM

Of course, if you want to make money, turn it into a collectable card game! (You might also look at the "Highlander CCG [tm]). This involves one on one dueling and special weapons, tactics and abilities. I think there may still be a few people playing it, either in online groups or hobby clubs. 
One of my favorite cards is a "highly collectable" card that you have to destroy to use! Now, that's rather cool for the retailer.

07-11-2002, 10:32 PM

Sounds good to me. 
I've made my email adress public on my profile so you could use that, or you could fax me at: +66113658, sorry, I don't have the prefix for Denmark with me right here. It might be a few days befor I get the fax, as it's not at my home. Or you could mail me a time when you'll fax, and I'll set up my machine for that. I guess that's a lot of options ;-) 
I think if we could get your thoughts on the game and a few days to think it over, a chat would be the very thing. 
One thing I should make claer, though is that while I've been in the "games scene" for about 30 years (playing, some designing and a good deal of retailing) I don't really know that much about gladiators, historically. this would of course be a good time to brush up on that ;-).

JRSCline · 07-12-2002, 07:18 PM

Well, actually that's just fine. I don't know ANYthing about designing games. So we're a perfect match! 
 
What we might eventually prefer to do is to create a working "board" system and then find a developer to turn it into a computer game, which is considerably easier to produce and market than the logistics of a high-quality board game. 
 
As for format, I think the best thing would be a card and dice based game incorporating a board and figurines. There! Does that satisfy everyone??? E EM 
 
You are in Denmark? That's on my side of the Atlantic. I live in Heidelberg, Germany. 
 
Cheers 
Jenny

07-13-2002, 10:30 AM

Well, anything but a full fledged trading card game is fine by me, those are an almost sure way of losing money, as opposed to what you'd think. Sorry about that remark, but having been in the game trade (retailer) I just had to make it, I still remember the Card Game Explosion of 96-97 with horror). 
 
I think you're right about making a boardgame, it's a lot easier to get the basic game made up for playtesting, and it's a lot easier to change the rules during testing. 
 
Do you have any specific idea of how detailed you want it to be, or if you want a campaign system? 
 
I have a friend who has made a few java-games from boardgames, he claims it's pretty easy as long as you don't want to get really fancy, so that souldn't be a problem, but I guess we'll have to wait and see. 
 
Being sorta close by I have wanted to join one of the tours on the board, I hope to be able to do so next year. The disadvantage of being from a really small country is that anything more than, say 200 Km, is a long trip! A pretty strange idea to North Americans, I think. We'll just have to see, I guess.

Caius Fabius · 07-14-2002, 12:15 AM

Having been a game retailer in the USA for seven years, I can tell you that the revenues from Collectable (Trading) Card Games often were the sole reason that I was able to show a profit margin some months! The wargamer or figure painter often plans ahead certain purchases, usually within a budget, and the store owner sees only a slight profit. The CCG market had people going to the local "blood bank" to sell blood so they could buy more cards. I have seen young soldiers spend 20% of their re-enlistment bonus in a weekend of card buying frenzy. It is a strange thing, but very profitable, especially if you make a game that pays no licensing royalties to any television show or copyrighted film or book! 
If a Roman themed card game of gladiatorial combat was available when the next Roman gladiator film was on the big screen, it could be very profitable. 
I think there are some gladiator rules available on the internet, and I still have some old ones packed away in a box somewhere. I'll try to remember to find them after I get back from the Roman Army Tour and other business in August.

JRSCline · 07-14-2002, 05:27 AM

Sure, Fabius, if we could see what had been done before, it would be helpful. 
 
I've been thinking collectible cards for gladiators and other characters might be a good idea. Each one could be slightly different and have a different special attack, defense, or other quality that made them desirable. 
 
The individual gladiators on a board of hexes, representing the generic arena, would be represented by stand-up figures, either of the two dimensional printed variety cut from cardboard and mounted on hex stands, or at the players' option, metal/plastic figurines between 25-30mm size. 
 
The only thing would be finding a proper line of gladiator figures. Does any maker produce them in sufficient variety? 
 
I'd really love to see a historically correct "glad game." It certainly is within our reach, given all the contacts and experience we can bring to the table as a group. 
 
Cheers 
Jenny

Catiline · 07-14-2002, 10:44 AM

Foundry does, complete with various arena officials and lions etc. They're my favourites, but they've got the problem of having to buy packs of 6 or so at a time, but there's loads of variety, I have the set called Saleh's Survivors (I think), which are nice. There are more in the works as well. 
 
Gladiator games make some, as you might expect, though they don't look upto much. The paintjobs aren't the best though, they've painted them up like big 15s... They also have some mounted galdiators. 
 
Black Tree design/Harlequin/Whatever thwey're called this week do some, but they're pretty hideous. 
 
Steve Barber makes a variety, as well as an Ampitheatre, civilian spectators etc. he also has his own rules though so perhaps not what you're looking for. 
 
I have links for others somewhere, I'll look them up. 
 
Unless the Persians fly away like birds, hide in the earth like mice, or leap into a lake like frogs, they will never see their homes again, but will die under our arrows

Caius Fabius · 07-14-2002, 07:03 PM

RAFM had some gladiators, Wargames Foundry has some (many are individualistic), and Amazon Miniatures in Manchester, (UK) has some as well. They are also creating spectator figures. 
Jenny, have you seen the "Highlander" card game cards and rules? Would you want some of the cards to view, or can you find them elsewhere? I think the rules are online, but I haen't actually searched for them. Besides, I know I have a few dozen rulebooks for the game here in my storage. I'll dig about for the other gladiator rules after I return from my summer trips. 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/ucaiusfabius.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Caius Fabius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ROMANISROMANORVM/files/C%20Fabius%201988b.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 7/14/02 9:37:29 pm

JRSCline · 07-15-2002, 05:21 AM

Yes, please "dig" if it wouldn't be too much trouble. I'd love to have some perspective on similarly-themed games. Highlander, never seen it. 
 
I can see that there could be cards for gladiators, for animals, for "victims" (ugh? but we want realism), for hazards and obstacles on the arena floor. 
 
And perhaps cards for special attacks or "instant" type effects? 
 
Alternatively, there could be a roleplay element to this, in that the gladiator manager (the player) creates a gladiator character and then develops him through training and experience, similar to the AD&D type character. 
 
Which sounds more interesting -- card- or dice- based characters? Note that the former are "set" and cannot change or develop. 
 
Cheers 
Jenny

07-15-2002, 11:54 AM

Well, actually you could have several cards for each gladiator. He (should we have female gladiators? From a game perspective, yes, but that's open to discussion) could then improve (be allowed to take a better card) with each game, getting new moves, attacks, etc. 
As you might have gathered, I'm rather keen on the card type of game, possibly with miniatures of some sort to make it look good and to keep things simple. 
 
As for trading card games, I have a few observations (made after 14 years in the retailing business). I'd like to stress that they are just that; my personal observations, they're not in any way an attack on my namesake, Fabius, we just seem to differ. 
There's a big difference in how trading card games (tcg) are played in the U.S. and in Europe. U.S. seems to be mainly tournament and game shop gaming, Europe is a lot more "private". 
The only tcg that has had any extended popularity is Magic, all of the others have petered out after a time. 
With tcgs, support from the publisher is extremely important, they need new cards to keep the game alive and they need to be promoted a good deal. 
 
That being said, the idea of tying them to the release of Gladiator II is excellent. 
 
We could possibly have a roleplaying aspect with the owner (player) having several different gladiators, a betting system, ability to trade galdiators, etc. We could then also have a set of victory rules, possibly optional, where the game would end whenever one of the players reached a set sum (400.000?). 
 
Just a few thoughts. 
 
Cheers, 
Svend Erik

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