Why Not Use Stainless Steel For Segmentatas

[Matt Lukes]

So what's next? A suggestion of anodized aluminum hinges, hooks, and paterae?

That's exactly my problem with using non-authentic materials- how can it possibly be said that the wrong material will behave more like the real thing would have? Besides, how the real thing behaved, with respect to armor plate, is conjectural anyway and is BASED on knowledge of the material anyway- and it's already been said that regular mild steel is the closest thing to Roman 'carbon-contaminated' iron, right?

[FlaviusCrispus]

I dunno. I guess I favor CR over SS for RR and LH, but not necessarily for NC or the SCA, where HR or SS could be AOK. And, like Matt, I think stuff like AA or even PCB is fine if non-RR / LH applications. But, on the other hand, I don't want to seem like a JSEA (jargon-spouting elitist...)

[Matt Lukes]

:lol:

[Hibernicus]

I don't want to seem like a JSEA (jargon-spouting elitist...)
T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels

OK, so I gotta ask.. Dave, what's the "A" stand for?

And for fun....
JSEA... Jeernervaniaan Standard Extended Alphabet
... worth a look see.. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/jsea.htm

[Magnus]

Dave, I have no idea what those abbreviations all mean...lmao!

[Matt Lukes]

I dunno. I guess I favor CR over SS for RR and LH, but not necessarily for NC or the SCA, where HR or SS could be AOK. And, like Matt, I think stuff like AA or even PCB is fine if non-RR / LH applications. But, on the other hand, I don't want to seem like a JSEA (jargon-spouting elitist...)

CR: Cold-Rolled (steel)
SS: Stainless Steel
RR: Reenactment & Reconstruction
LH: Living History
NC: Uh- North Carolina?
SCA: Societey for.. you all know
HR: Hot-Rolled (steel)
AOK: 'A' Okay
AA: Anodized Aluminum (brass-coated looking aluminum)
PCB: well it does stand for Polychlorinated Biphenyl- a lovely toxic chemical LOL, but I think he means something Coated Brass?
A in JSEA: A$$h...?

[Magnus]

Those that have participated in this thread, have been sacked!

[Matt Lukes]

So does that mean that when it comes time to sack those who were supposed to have sacked all those participating in this thread, you're gone too? lol:

[Servius Rustius Noricus]

The reason I became a reenactor was to strive for historical accuracy, but I keep hearing mention and referrals to the SCA almost as if it were a viable source of knowledge, or something we should aspire to.. I am then to believe that as reenactors we want to be part of an organization that for the want of a better word spoofs history. Are we slowly through compromise and ego heading down that road?

[Magnus]

I dunno Matt...in the old thread apparently I told everyone I bought Holy Grail as a double disk...I don't have any recollection of that (including the dvd).

hock:

[Matt Lukes]

Are we slowly through compromise and ego heading down that road?

No, not in the least- if anything I think we compromise as little as is possible now and if anything I see accuracy improving as people strive for the best they can do/ get.

[FlaviusCrispus]

CR: Cold-Rolled (steel)
SS: Stainless Steel
RR: Reenactment & Reconstruction
LH: Living History

Check on all of the above. VG, ML!

NC: Uh- North Carolina?

I was thinking Needlefelt Combat, but I kinda like yours better...

PCB: well it does stand for Polychlorinated Benzenes- a lovely toxic chemical LOL, but I think he means something Coated Brass?

Nope. Painted CardBoard. OK, I cheated. SSM.

A in JSEA: A$$h...?

Um... Alien. Yeah, that's it... Jargon-Spouting Elitist Alien. Or Adult. Or Amphibian. Or American. Or something...

[chris]

I am new to the board but have been interested in Roman reenacting for years. I own a complete set of Roman arms and equipment and have constructed my own set of Newstead Lrica based on current information. I am a metallurgist and materials consultant by trade. I thought I would weigh in on the metals discussion. First, Roman iron was most likely a high ferrite and carbon alloy due to the forging techniques likely used to form the ingots. This would most likely been done over an open forge with charcoal and large amounts of carbon would likely have been incorporated into the alloy as well as silicon due to possibly using sand forms to cast the ingots. Based on the early ASTM standards for both Malleable iron and wrought iron, the basic alloy for wrought iron was almost entirely ferrite though with rather high carbon content. The carbon content for various irons are as follows: White iron, 1.8% to 3.6%, malleable iron, 2.2% to 2.9%, gray iron, 2.5% to 4.0%, ductile iron, 3.0% to 4.0%, graphite iron 2.5% to 4.0%. High amounts of silicon might be present due to iron pigs being cast in sand molds. We performed a metallurgical analysis in Cincinnati on cast iron columns dating before the Civil War and the wet chemistry results indicated high ferrite contents, with incidental alloys that occur naturally in ferrite and high silicon. Alternatively, wrought iron samples of the framing that were manufactured by Carnagie Iron Works in the 1850's contained 99.41% ferrite and 0.12% carbon with no other alloys. One universal aspect of wrought iron is that it has a relatively low yield and tensile strength in comparison to low carbon steels. For example, wrought iron blooms were required according to the 1949 ASTM standard to have a tensile strength of 45,000 PSI and a yield of 22,500 PSI. Current universally manufctured low carbon steel (typically ASTM A-36) contains numerous alloys that would not have been found in ancient Roman iron. These include low carbon 0.29%, Mangenese (0.80%-0.12%), low silicon (0.12% to 0.40%), plus copper and other alloys to increase weldeability and provide some corrosion resistance. ASTM A-36 material has the following physical properties: yield strength=36,000 PSI, Tensile strength=58,000-80,000 PSI. Current low carbon steel behaves differently to iron in that it has a generally austenitic grain structure (round particles) that cause it to have good long term cyclic loading failure resistance. It also cannot be cold beaten into a martensitic grain structure (long thin plates) that would add brittleness. In order to encapsulate the martensitic grain structures, it must be heat treated, workded and then quenched. Iron can be cold beaten into martincitic structures due to the high carbon content. I know this is a long post, but bear with me. Stainless steel, most likely ASTM A-304 which is the most commercially sold form in plate has the following alloys: carbon, 0.08% (same as low carbon steel), mangenese, 2.0% (slightly higher than low carbon steel) , silicon 1.0%, chromium, 18%, nickel, 8%. Both chromium and nickel are added for corrosion resistance. Notice wrought iron, carbon steel and stainless steel are different alloys with different chemical, and physical properties. There are numerous alloys of carbon steel, stainless steel and even iron that vary due to alloys and physical properties. In order to get close to Roman wrought iron, one would have to produce the pigs with the ferrite as found naturally in the iron producing regions, these would have to be cast using clay or silica based forms, they would then need to be forged or milled according to Roman practice, then they would need to be worked in Roman fashion. The result would have both aspects necessary to equate to Roman metals, physical and chemical properties. In my humble opinion, the use of modern hot rolled or cold rolled low carbon alloys, or stainless alloys, both are far away from ancient Metallurgies in grain structures, physical properties and chemical properties, rendering the entire argument largely a moot point.

Respectfully,

Chris

[Tarbicus]

Chris, have you read In defence of Rome: a metallographic investigation of Roman ferrous armour from Northern Britain, by Fulford, Sim, Doig and Painter, published in Journal of Archaeological Science 32, 2005?

It would be interesting to get your opinion.

[Magnus]

Well, we do what we can. Most of us are restricted by what we can afford, and right now mild steel is about as close as we can get based on budget and commerical availability.

BTW, do you know what type of charcoal they were using? Different woods yield different amounts of carbon into the forging process.