Pre Marian Legion Organisation

[Matthew]

My understanding of Polybius' picture of the Republican Legion is that, in the period he is describing, they were usually comprised of:

300 Equites (divided into 10 units of 30, each under 6 officers)
600 Triarii (divided into 10 units of 60, each under 4 officers)
1,200 Principes (divided into 10 units of 120, each under 4 officers)
1,200 Hastati (divided into 10 units of 120, each under 4 officers)
1,200 Velites (divided amongst the other units)

...for a total of 4,500 men (excluding or including officers)

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/polybius6.html

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... us/6*.html

My first question is how were the Velites dispersed amongst the thirty Manipuli? My current thinking is that each received 40 Velites, which would bring the individual Manipular strength of the Principes and Hastati up to 160 and the Triarii to 100. This would accord well with Marius' supposed reforms that standardised the equipping and organisation of the Legion, since the former two Manipuli would have been 160 strong and logically divisible into two Centuries of 80. The Triarii would presumably be brought into line with them, rather than the other way around, and their combination would correspond well with a Cohort of 480 Men. This makes sense to me, but I am interested in other views.

My second question relates to Legions larger than 4,200 men. Polybius indicates that they would be proportionally increased to 5,000, excluding Triarii. How would that work? Additional Manipuli or larger Manipuli? If larger Manipuli, how would these eight hundred be divided into the 20 units? As Hastati and Principes alone or would some be Velites? 800 does not divide into three very well, but it would raise each units strength to 200 or two 'centuries', if we accept the former calculations:

600 Triarii (divided into 10 units of 60, each under 4 officers)
1,500 Principes (divided into 10 units of 150, each under 4 officers)
1,500 Hastati (divided into 10 units of 150, each under 4 officers)
1,400 Velites (divided amongst the other units) [40 in each unit of Triarri , 50 in each unit of Principes and Hastati]

...for a total of 5,000 men (excluding or including officers and ignoring Equites, the number of which may or may not have also been expanded)

I think this is the most logical meaning that Polybius intends, but I am open to suggestions.

My third question relates to Polybius' comments concerning earlier Legion organisation (end of Book 6, Chapter 20), which seems to be 4,000 Infantry and 200 Cavalry in one translation and 4,200 Infantry and 300 Cavalry in the other. Anyone know the truth of it? I'm afraid I don't have access to the original Greek at the moment and my Ancient Greek Skills are poor to say the least anyway.
If the former, 4,000 does not divide well by the system he provides, but it does divide well into 4, which could mean, speculatively speaking:

200 Equites
1,000 Triarii (divided into 10 units of 100)
1,000 Principes (divided into 10 units of 100)
1,000 Hastati (divided into 10 units of 100)
1,000 Velites (divided into 10 units of 100)

...which would accord well with 'century' divisions. Perhaps Polybius is trying to explain the appelation of the Century to units less than 100 strong himself?

Thanks for your time and clarifications in advance

Matthew James Stanham

[edit] Located some previous discussion:

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... +principes

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... +principes

[Q Rutilius]

My first question is how were the Velites dispersed amongst the thirty Manipuli? My current thinking is that each received 40 Velites, which would bring the individual Manipular strength of the Principes and Hastati up to 160 and the Triarii to 100. This would accord well with Marius' supposed reforms that standardised the equipping and organisation of the Legion, since the former two Manipuli would have been 160 strong and logically divisible into two Centuries of 80. The Triarii would presumably be brought into line with them, rather than the other way around, and their combination would correspond well with a Cohort of 480 Men. This makes sense to me, but I am interested in other views.

Hello Matthew. I too have had similar ideas regarding the transition of the rebuplican legion to the Marian legion. All, I can say is that your theory seems quite reasonable to me. I hope your questions generate some responses as I think that this is a very interesting topic.

[Matthew]

Thanks for your response Tom. Yeah, bit of a shame that nobody seems interested in this topic. Of course, that probably means one of two things; either it has already been done to death and disappeared or else the secondary literature sufficiently covers such things somewhere...

Anyway, just to expand on my thinking:

Alternative Velite divisioning patterns:

A 1,000 Velites (i.e. if Polybius means 4,000 is the Infantry total for a normal Legion)

Divided by Unit (i.e. 30 Manipuli) doesn't work out at as whole number
Divided by proportion (i.e. 1200, 1200 and 600) means:

1,200 Hastati + 400 Velites in 10 Manipuli of 120 Hastati and 40 Velites
1,200 Principes + 400 Velites in 10 Manipuli of 120 Princpes and 40 Velites
600 Triarii + 200 Velites in 10 Manipuli of 60 Triarii and 20 Velites

The problem comes when you try to increase the Legion size to 5,000, as 1,000 does not divide well amongst three classes nor even two (as in the latter case Hastati and Principes Manipuli would increase to 170 each, with Velites making 210)
Even if the new recruits are proportionate to the current Manipular strength of the Hastati and Principes [i.e. 3 in every 8 reinforcements belongs to the Hastati, 3 in every 8 belongs to the Principes and 2 in every 8 to the Velites]. The numbers work out badly, 375 Hastati, 375 Principes and 250 Velites cannot be divided by 10.


B 1,200 Velites (i.e. if Polybius means 4,200 is the Infantry total for a normal Legion)

Divided by proportion (i.e. 1200, 1200 and 600) means:

1,200 Hastati + 480 Velites in 10 Manipuli of 120 Hastati and 48 Velites
1,200 Principes + 480 Velites in 10 Manipuli of 120 Princpes and 48 Velites
600 Triarii + 240 Velites in 10 Manipuli of 60 Triarii and 24 Velites

This is certainly a possibility for dividing the Velites into the Manipuli and it reminds one of the 480 Cohort size of post Marian forces.
However, when increasing the Legion to 5,000 one may not increase the three lowest classes either by proportion or by uniformly. Therefore, for this model to work reinforcements would only be Hastati or Principes, meaning reinforced Manipuli would be 208 strong, whilst Triarii Manipuli strength would remain 84. A possibility, but not an attractive one.

Divided by Unit (i.e. 30 Manipuli) the result is 40 Velites to each Unit, meaning:

1,200 Hastati + 400 Velites in 10 Manipuli of 120 Hastati and 40 Velites
1,200 Principes + 400 Velites in 10 Manipuli of 120 Princpes and 40 Velites
600 Triarii + 400 Velites in 10 Manipuli of 60 Triarii and 40 Velites

This works out rather well for the 800 reinforcements that would bring Legion infantry strength up to 5,000. 800 does not divide uniformly by 3, so we must assume proportional division if each class is reinforced [i.e. 3 in every 8 reinforcements belongs to the Hastati, 3 in every 8 belongs to the Principes and 2 in every 8 to the Velites]. The numbers work out rather nicely, at, 300 Hastati, 300 Principes and 200 Velites, which totals at 20 Manipuli of 150 Hastati / Principes and 50 Velites. The problem comes when you try to divide them into Companies, as you end up with 75 Hastati / Principes and 25 Velites, which does not divide up well into 'Squads'.

The alternatives are either to assume only the Velites are reinforced or only the Hastati and Principes, the latter of which would actually work out quite interestingly, as it would mean each Century was composed of 80 Hastati / Principes and 20 Velites. The former would mean that each Company resembled a Manipuli of Triarii [i.e. 60 Hastati / Principes and 40 Velites]

All very interesting, in my opinion, but it seems that none of these suppositions makes perfect sense, though several are tantalising hints towards the meaning of Marius' numeric reforms.

What I find most interesting is what this suggests about how the Velites operated on the battlefield. If indeed they are deployed chiefly as a screen for the other infantry, then they were most likely deployed in three such screens, one in front of each class of 'Heavy Infantry'. Moreover, given that they were divided equally amongst the Companies, rather than proportionate to the numbers of Infantry, it may be concluded that the Triarii either fought in ranks half as deep as their comrades or else stood twice as far apart [and therefore each would have an individual frontage of 12 feet, according to Polybius, which I find personally unlikely].

[Caius Fabius]

1. why assume every class had veletes? Triarii are at the rear of the battle, sitting down, and only used in emergencies, why do they need veletes?

2. Why assume that triarii are spread out along the whole battle line. I suspect that they were concentrated in a central reserve, which could be sent by the commander to wherever was a failure of the hastati and Principes to hold.

The Triarii are there to give moral support, maybe even to shout encouragement to their sons or relatives, and to be a steady phalanx to hold the rear guard if the army must retreat, or to break and contain an enemy penetration of the battle line. Stuff in real life does not work out like it does on the war-game table. Just seeing the hedge of spears might give the enemy a pause, knowing that there are fresh reserves waiting to come to action, even if they manage a breakthrough.

[Matthew]

1. Well this is exactly what I want to know. My reading of Polybius implies that this is the case, but I am certanly interested in alternatives:

XXIV. Ex hekastou de tôn proeirêmenôn genôn plên tôn neôtatôn exelexan taxiarchous aristindên deka. meta de toutous heteran eklogên allôn deka poiountai. [2] kai toutous men hapantas prosêgoreusan taxiarchous, hôn ho prôtos hairetheis kai sunedriou koinônei: proseklegontai d' houtoi palin autoi tous isous ouragous. [3] hexês de toutois meta tôn taxiarchôn dieilon tas hêlikias, hekastên eis deka merê, plên tôn grosphomachôn: kai proseneiman hekastôi merei tôn eklechthentôn andrôn du' hêgemonas kai du' ouragous. [4] tôn de grosphomachôn tous epiballontas kata to plêthos isous epi panta ta merê dieneiman. [5] kai to men meros hekaston ekalesan kai tagma kai speiran kai sêmaian, tous d' hêgemonas kenturiônas kai taxiarchous. [6] houtoi de kath' hekastên speiran ek tôn kataleipomenôn exelexan autoi duo tous akmaiotatous kai gennaiotatous andras sêmaiaphorous. [7] duo de kath' hekaston tagma poiousin hêgemonas eikotôs: adêlou gar ontos kai tou poiêsai kai tou pathein ti ton hêgemona, tês polemikês chreias ouk epidechomenês prophasin, oudepote boulontai tên speiran chôris hêgemonos einai kai prostatou. [8] parontôn men oun amphoterôn ho men prôtos hairetheis hêgeitai tou dexiou merous tês speiras, ho de deuteros tôn euônumôn andrôn tês sêmaias echei tên hêgemonian: mê parontôn d' ho kataleipomenos hêgeitai pantôn. [9] boulontai d' einai tous taxiarchous ouch houtôs thraseis kai philokindunous hôs hêgemonikous kai stasimous kai batheis mallon tais psuchais, oud' ex akeraiou prospiptein ê katarchesthai tês machês, epikratoumenous de kai piezomenous hupomenein kai apothnêskein huper tês chôras.

The Principes, Hastati, and Triarii, each elect ten centurions according to merit, and then a second ten each. All these sixty have the title of centurion alike, of whom the first man chosen is a member of the council of war. And they in their turn select a rear-rank officer each who is called optio. Next, in conjunction with the centurions, they divide the several orders (omitting the Velites) into ten companies each, and appoint to each company two centurions and two optiones; the Velites are divided equally among all the companies; these companies are called orders (ordines) or maniples (manipuli), or vexilla, and their officers are called centurions or ordinum ductores. Each maniple selects two of their strongest and best born men as standard-bearers (vexillarii). And that each maniple should have two commanding officers is only reasonable; for it being impossible to know what a commander may be doing or what may happen to him, and necessities of war admitting of no parleying, they are anxious that the maniple may never be without a leader and commander. [p. 479] When the two centurions are both on the field, the first elected commands the right of the maniple, the second the left: if both are not there, the one who is commands the whole. And they wish the centurions not to be so much bold and adventurous, as men with a faculty for command, steady, and of a profound rather than a showy spirit; not prone to engage wantonly or be unnecessarily forward in giving battle; but such as in the face of superior numbers and overwhelming pressure will die in defence of their post.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/pt ... ection=1

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/polybius6.html

It's certainly possible that once deployed, the Velites were reassigned to other company captains, but I rather suspect not (again, though, I would be interested in evidence to the contrary).

I would imagine that the Triarii would benefit from a number of Velites in the same way as their fellows.

2. The Triarii certainly could have formed a central reserve. However, they might just as easily have formed 10 reserves, each assigned to a corresponding unit of Hastati and Principes, the three lines of which, I would argue, correspond to the later Marian Cohort.

[drsrob]

In any calculation note should be taken that Polybius specifically says that the trairii remained at 600 regardless of the strength of the legion.

[Matthew]

Indeed, my calculations for the reinforced Legion take into account that very thing, unless I am mistaken? Presumably reinforced units of Hastati and Principes fought in deeper ranks?

This passage from Polybius rather suggests that the largest size maniples might reach 200, in that 20 is one tenth of 200... why 5 and 8 I am not able to explain at the moment:

"If the same thing ever happens to large bodies, and if entire maniples desert their posts when exceedingly hard pressed, the officers refrain from inflicting the bastinado or the death penalty on all, but find a solution of the difficulty which is both salutary and terror-striking. 2The tribune assembles the legion, and brings up those guilty of leaving the ranks, reproaches them sharply, and finally chooses by lots sometimes five, sometimes eight, sometimes twenty of the offenders, so adjusting the number thus chosen that they form as near as possible the tenth part of p357those guilty of cowardice."

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... us/6*.html

On the other hand, the following passage from Polybius may suggest that the Velites fought entirely independently from the Maniples:

"The Romans, seeing p95the enemy drawn up to offer battle, issued forth to meet them with alacrity. 9Alarmed at the prospect of the elephants' charge, they stationed the velites in the van and behind them the legions many maniples deep, dividing the cavalry between the two wings. 10In thus making their whole line shorter and deeper than before they had been correct enough in so far as concerned the coming encounter with the elephants, but as to that with the cavalry, which largely outnumbered theirs, they were very wide of the mark."

Polybius, Book 1, Chapter 33

Of course, the Romans and Regulus got pretty badly defeated during this engagement. :wink:

Later on the Heavy Infantry and Light Infantry are depicted fighting together successfully, but this may be exceptional:

"Terentius was in command next day the two Consuls according to the usual practice commanding on alternate days and he broke up his camp and p273advanced with the object of approaching the enemy in spite of Aemilius's strong protests and efforts to prevent him. Hannibal met him with his light-armed troops and cavalry and surprising him while still on the march disordered the Romans much. They met, however, the first charge by advancing some of their heavy infantry, and afterwards sending forwards also their javelineers and cavalry got the better in the whole engagement, as the Carthaginians had no considerable covering force, while they themselves had some companies of their legions fighting mixed with the light-armed troops."

Polybius, Book 3, Chapter 110


Saying that, most of the battles in Polybius follow a fairly standard pattern. The Velites and other Light Infantry engage, retire, disappear from the text and then an indistinct Heavy Infantry engages the enemy Heavy Infantry. There is not much indication as to how the Hastati, Principes and Triarii behave distinctly from one another.

An exception that springs to mind is Book 15, Chapter 9, where the ordering of his forces and general plan is outlined, and Chapters 12-14 where the battle is described. Scipio's Velites begin the battle alongside the Hastati, issue out to begin the battle and then retire behind the army entirely. Then, his Hastati engage the enemy, get into trouble, and are reinforced by the Principes. The Hastati then reform to face the last Carthaginian line, but Scipio then extends his battleline by flanking them with the Principes and Triarii. The line advances and, in combination with the Equites, is victorious.
My question would be where are the Velites during this second stage of the battle? Are they all dead or retired? Even so, has Scipio no need of Light Infantry at this juncture? Have the Carthaginians no Light Infantry available? It seems to me very odd that Polybius chooses to mention four classes by name, but makes no mention of the Velites.

[Caius Fabius]

Polybius is a good source, but have you read "[amazon]Soldiers and Ghosts[/amazon]" by Lendon? This tries to make sense of the writings and explain how the individuals fought in the armies of the Roman Republic. It is very interesting, and might shed a new light on some of your questions.

[Q Rutilius]

Thanks for the heads up on Lendon's book Caius.

Theodore Dodge's book, Caesar, shows the velites filing in the gaps between the triarii in the 3rd line. Now, this is probably just a graphical representation of the organization of a legion, and I do not think that Col. Dodge thought that the velites were stationed there. In fact, he has them out front as the battle starts throwing javelins at the enemy. However, it has occurred to me (and this my theory, don't blame Dodge) that they could have moved back into the 3rd line (triarii). Because: 1) They are young men and may be steadied by the presence of the veteran triarii, 2) From this 3rd line they could dash out again to the front or flanks, if required. Personally, I think number 1 is most likely as I have read no where about the velites reentering the fight again.

I like Mathew's question because the Romans seemed to be very well organized and having a mob of 1200 velites roaming about just seems to be, well, un-Roman.

From another perspective, if I am a Roman general, which is easier to control 1200 velites all at once, or to have smaller units of them that can be maneuvered and ordered about?

I have never read in any source how the velites were organized. Personally, I can't help but think that they were attached to maniples of the heavy infantry - perhaps even if only in an administrative way.

I agree Mathew that the numbers are tantalizingly close. If only the ancients had been as precise about numbers as we are today!

[Tarbicus]

I like Mathew's question because the Romans seemed to be very well organized and having a mob of 1200 velites roaming about just seems to be, well, un-Roman.

In Lendon's description of them, they very much were just that at the front until recalled or too hard pressed, when they would return to fill the gaps between the maniples. He even has the principes and hastati in loose order but grouped into maniples again fighting as individuals, with the triarii actually being formally organised into rank and file of three maniples across the entire rear. The velites fought as individuals in what he calls a 'swarm', filling the gaps between the hastati when hard pressed, but swarming out again when opportunity arose. Velites means "fast men", and it may have been a right of passage for them with the more experienced men shouting encouragement. He also theorises that the wearing of skins made it easier for individuals to be identified and judged on their bravery, according to Polybius.

He very much sees Roman soldiers not as team workers but individuals competing with each other.

[Q Rutilius]

Thanks Tarbicus. Still seems unRoman somehow.

I need to add this book to my Must Have list.

[Matthew]

Polybius is a good source, but have you read "[amazon]Soldiers and Ghosts[/amazon]" by Lendon? This tries to make sense of the writings and explain how the individuals fought in the armies of the Roman Republic. It is very interesting, and might shed a new light on some of your questions.

No, I haven't read it, though I have heard it mentioned a few times on these forums. I'm sure it would be worth a read, thanks for the links.

Thanks for the heads up on Lendon's book Caius.

Theodore Dodge's book, Caesar, shows the velites filing in the gaps between the triarii in the 3rd line. Now, this is probably just a graphical representation of the organization of a legion, and I do not think that Col. Dodge thought that the velites were stationed there. In fact, he has them out front as the battle starts throwing javelins at the enemy. However, it has occurred to me (and this my theory, don't blame Dodge) that they could have moved back into the 3rd line (triarii). Because: 1) They are young men and may be steadied by the presence of the veteran triarii, 2) From this 3rd line they could dash out again to the front or flanks, if required. Personally, I think number 1 is most likely as I have read no where about the velites reentering the fight again.

Polybius has Scipio deploying the Velites between the Manipuli of Hastati in Book XV, Chapter 9, but what is interesting is that he describes them as being in Cohorts, which he describes in Book XI Chapter 23 as being three Manipuli. A quick calculation puts the Hastati Manipuli each at 120 Men and, given that the intervals are equal, 120 Velites in each interval (though one Cohort of Velites would be exposed).
Taking into account the above calculations for numbers of Velites and their division amongst the Manipuli, one could make a good case for this number in each interval being made up of the Velites assigned to the corresponding Cohort of Heavy Infantry (i.e. 3 x 40 or Hastati Velites + Principes Velites + Triarii Velites). The infantry deployment would look something like this:

= = = = = = = = = = Triarii
= = = = = = = = = = Principes
=============== Hastati + Velites

When the engagement begins the Velites move forward to engage the enemy, retreating through the gaps in the Manipuli once the Heavy Infantry close with one another or when heavily pressed.

Scipio's deployment is apparently unusual in that it does not use the chequerboard pattern for Hastati and Principes, which might mean the more usual deployment was for each Maniple of Principes to stand behind each Cohort of Velites.

Whatever the case, it suggests that Velites could have been organised into 10 Cohorts of 120 Men, each Cohort being the sum of the Velites attached to a Cohort of Heavy Infantry [i.e. Hastati + Principes + Triarii; see Polybius Book XI, Chapter 22 "Scipio receiving the skirmishers through the intervals between his cohorts"].

What tends to scupper this view are the camp arrangements, where Polybius indicates that each Tribune had three Manipuli [1 Cohort] of Hastati and Principes assigned to him with the Manipuli of Triarii and the entirety of the Velites being exempt. This Cohort organisation might conceivably have continued onto the battlefield.

In Lendon's description of them, they very much were just that at the front until recalled or too hard pressed, when they would return to fill the gaps between the maniples. He even has the principes and hastati in loose order but grouped into maniples again fighting as individuals, with the triarii actually being formally organised into rank and file of three maniples across the entire rear. The velites fought as individuals in what he calls a 'swarm', filling the gaps between the hastati when hard pressed, but swarming out again when opportunity arose. Velites means "fast men", and it may have been a right of passage for them with the more experienced men shouting encouragement. He also theorises that the wearing of skins made it easier for individuals to be identified and judged on their bravery, according to Polybius.

He very much sees Roman soldiers not as team workers but individuals competing with each other.

Very interesting Jim. Does he give any spacial calclations? How does he come up with three Manipuli of Triarii? or do you mean the depth of the ranks supposed is 3? (which I also think likely, each Maniple of Triarii having a facing of 20 Men, meaning 120 or 60 feet, depending on whether they fought in open or closed order).

[Felix]

I am reading Lendon right now, and I quite agree with his concept of light infantry velites. Men with small shields and no armour would have great difficulty in a stand-up melee fight, so it makes sense they would act before the melee, in support (maybe) of the shock troops, and possibly afterwards.

Light infantry in general use mobility and speed in place of armour and formation; this tendency can be seen from the peltasts up to the light infantry (riflemen and voltigeurs) of the Napoleonic Wars. It seems unlikely to me that they would be tied to the line of other troops (although they quite possibly start the battle in line with the others). I would expect them to move out early, and then get out of the way when the two main forces were about to meet. I have no strong opinion about how the velites were distributed, though - and am enjoying the discussion.

[Matthew]

True, but to be fair the Hastati themselves may not have been well armoured, the poorest wearing only Pectorales; nor is the Scutum of the Hastati much larger than the Parma of the Velites (48" by 30", as opposed to 36" in Diameter) and though I wouldn't hazard to compare their composition, Polybius does say the Parma is strongly made.

It is also worth noting that the Velites carry swords, which suggests some up close and personal fighting. On the other hand, this does not seem to be the Gladius Hispanicus type and I must concede that I do not know what is being translated at this point.

[Pullarius]

True, but to be fair the Hastati themselves may not have been well armoured, the poorest wearing only Pectorales; nor is the Scutum of the Hastati much larger than the Parma of the Velites (48" by 30", as opposed to 36" in Diameter) and though I wouldn't hazard to compare their composition, Polybius does say the Parma is strongly made.

It is also worth noting that the Velites carry swords, which suggests some up close and personal fighting. On the other hand, this does not seem to be the Gladius Hispanicus type and I must concede that I do not know what is being translated at this point.

I could be wrong but by the time of the polybian legions werent soldiers grouped into the various ranks of soldiers, Hastati,Principes and triarii more by age and experience than by wealth? I thought that age became more the deciding factor in your postition in various classes of the legion after the period sometimes called the Servian system. Therefore it would seem to me that many of the wealthier hastati were probably as heavily armored as many of the Principes. If my assumption is correct where did you get your demensions for the typical Hastati scutum because i thought there was nothing typical about the equipment of the various soldiers in the polybian legions, other than the basic weaponry that is.