Painted legionary helmets?

[Tarbicus]

This is purely speculative and just bouncing an idea off everyone, and as I'm not writing a thesis or proposing a learned paper on the subject it should be taken in the spirit of what I say.

Heiko got confirmation this week from the Krefeld museum that the Krefeld-Gelduba helm (similar to an Italic D) we have been researching and trying to figure out had raised eye outlines and sunken eyebrows. The full story is here:
link from old RAT

What I notice is that later helmets, particularly the Intercisas, also share similar decorative traits, but not the applied brass decoration on top of the eyes. They do, however, have sunken decoration. Eyes on helmets have been discussed before, especially in relation to the later Roman types as seen here at Archeon:
[url:mzxlxj0v]http://www.fectio.org.uk/shows/2005archeon19.jpg[/url]

Also seen on much earlier helms from antiquity are painted decoration and eyebrows as reconstructed here:
[url:mzxlxj0v]http://erste-legion.de/forum/userpix/12_dsc00096_1.jpg[/url]

As a joke I decided to modify an existing picture of mine:
[url:mzxlxj0v]http://hometown.aol.co.uk/Tarbicus/painted_weisenau.jpg[/url]

The thing is that the painted Intercisa, which I believe is copied from the Notitia Dignitatum, and the earlier painted helmets lead me to wonder why would this disappear in the interim period?

There is much evidence for Roman armour being painted although this is usually restricted to musculata, seemingly. However, the shoulder doublings from the Ahenobarbus Relief suggest decoration on more ordinary armour. But, given the decoration that was often applied to pretty much anything they could do it to in the form of brass, gilt, silvering, tinning, niello and enamel, why not put some paint on your helmet to enhance it? Why not eyes and other motifs on them, and even on the armour. Such motifs did serve a practical purpose in the eyes of an ancient as supernatural protection, and I am now coming to some kind of opinion that it would actually be unusual not to. We also see bona fide decoration on the inside of reconstructed scuta, so why not the other bits?

Thanks for listening, I hope you weren't too bored :?

[FAVENTIANVS]

I like the idea!!!!!

I always wanted to paint my helmet, but still looking for evidences... :?

[Caballo]

Ummmm...well, I've just looked through my copy of the illustrations from the Notitia and De Rebus and can't find a painted helmet....
It would be wonderful if the spectrologists(?) could analyse some more of the Roman tombstones to discover how they were painted, whether masks were worn etc etc..

[Tarbicus]

Me too, Favi, but with the lack of paint on even the Columns it's a minefield.

A tiny bit of me just wonders [size=150:3qrjf38n]if [/size] the eyes on the Krefeld helmet are merely making a common motif more permanent?

Another example of anthropomorphic decoration on Weisenau helmets are the raised cheek embossments on the cheek pieces.

[Cornelius Quintus]

Ave Jim,

good idea - why not? The Romans painted columns, walls, tombstones, statues and... woman faces :lol:

A painted helmet would - like the scutum- require a cover not to scratch off the color when marching.

But helmet covers are not unusual, too and they were still common as a standard equipment in Napoleonic times or WW I. I think some remains of Roman helmet covers also survived but I have no photograph at hand.

And just about 'boring' others - did I mention the Roman 'fish' helmets on the Mainz relief :wink: (Running away as fast as a coward like me can...)

[Tarbicus]

did I mention the Roman 'fish' helmets on the Mainz relief Wink (Running away as fast as a coward like me can...)

:lol: :lol:

[Martin Wallgren]

Intriguing. Many later Europeans have painted helmets and Armour. There is many examples out there. On my armoury this has been discussed a few tims and some of the patrons there has done som reconstructions. Check them out and see some originals here:

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic ... rman+black
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic ... ght=norman

[Tarbicus]

Thanks Martin, some amazing examples there! A pity that they're not from a thousand years earlier. I've got the Osprey Normans book, and was wondering if you knew that [url:ol0vcuaq]http://www.manningimperial.com[/url] make the ones Angus McBride illustrated, but without the paintwork.

Back to topic: I really don't want to make out that I am saying the earlier Imperial Roman legionaries did paint thier helmets. It's just a deep suspicion of mine, that cannot be proven, that they likely could have, even if only as a cheap alternative to metal decoration.

I'm sure I've seen a re-enactor's decoratively painted gladius scabbard somewhere. Does anyone have any info on that?

[Robert Vermaat]

The thing is that the painted Intercisa, which I believe is copied from the Notitia Dignitatum

No, it wasn't, the ND does not show such helmets. I recall that Authari told me it was based on the Via Maria catacomb:

[Tarbicus]

Thanks Robert. You're right about the Notitia Dignitatum, apologies to all. I've seen it somewhere though, not the painting you posted :evil: This is gonna drive me nuts.

[Martin Wallgren]

More pictures of painted armour.

http://www.albion-swords.com/articles/norman.htm

If the colour is covering all metal in a iron or steel helmet, does it work as a anti-rust layer or would it make the helmet rust faster? what do you think?

Just as a theorising now when the subject is up :wink:

[FAVENTIANVS]

I'm sure I've seen a re-enactor's decoratively painted gladius scabbard somewhere. Does anyone have any info on that?

Yes, Roma Anticua's centurio.
Aitor has some pic of him.

[Matt Lukes]

The question that immediately comes to mind for me is did the Romans have paint that would even adhere well to metal? Certainly if it cannot be shown that they did or even potentially did given what's known about paint in use, then idea loses a lot of its plausibility. Anyone know if they did?

I wonder what the evidence the author of that article on Norman equipment has for his statement about painting armor going back to the ancient Greeks- it would have to be actual artifacts to be reasonably considered more than a possibility as the only other 'evidence' would be art- and artistic license is too great a possibility to consider painting armor a truth without other supporting evidence- such as the existence of paint that would adhere to metal.

[Tarbicus]

But what did the Greeks use? There's a lot of ceramic evidence showing images on the helmets. Would casein with lime hold up?

[Carlton Bach]

The question that immediately comes to mind for me is did the Romans have paint that would even adhere well to metal? Certainly if it cannot be shown that they did or even potentially did given what's known about paint in use, then idea loses a lot of its plausibility. Anyone know if they did?

They certainly had all the ingredients, Basic oil paint holds on metal no problem. I just finished a few experiments in that direction and ended up with a painted 12th century nasal helmet in heraldic colours. The paint is pigment (aniline ersatz cinnabar, chomium oxide ersatz verdigris and red ochre) in bleached linseed oil, no siccatives or other additives. It takes a long time to dry, but holds very firmly. I painted a steel bowl for testing purposes, and the only way we managed to seriously damage the paint was with the pointy end of a 400-g hammer. It stood up to rattan sticks, mallets, the flat end of a carpenter's hammer, and repeatedly being stomped on.

I wonder what the evidence the author of that article on Norman equipment has for his statement about painting armor going back to the ancient Greeks- it would have to be actual artifacts to be reasonably considered more than a possibility as the only other 'evidence' would be art- and artistic license is too great a possibility to consider painting armor a truth without other supporting evidence- such as the existence of paint that would adhere to metal.

We hae Egyptian depictions of coloured scales in armour suits. Of course these could have been proto-enamel or painted leather. But while I am not sure whether the Greeks actually painted armour, I am fairly certain that they could have had they wanted to. They did paint on bronze statues as far as we know.