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Hi Caius here with a question, Ok so the Romano-British were horsemen, however there is still the need for Infantry,only Infantry holds the ground while Horsemen are good for Recce, heroic charges and patroling areas there still has to be infantry to guard forts, towns and due the hard grunt work that horseman usally dont want to do ie building, repairing creating enbankments. Would there be for a while some left behind Late Roman units or the Militia or just a peasant levy. Also what about bowman in the Romano-british ranks,they could not have been all Horseman. :roll: Anyhow my two cents Cheers Caius/Thomas R
He who desires peace ,let him prepare for war. He who wants victory, let him train soldiers diligently. No one dares challenge or harm one who he realises will win if he fights. Vegetius, Epitome 3, 1st Century Legionary Thomas Razem
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Hi Thomas,
Well, just like the cavalrymen, we just don't know!
Roman units stayed behind, but how did they look after 20 years? 40 years? 60 years? Did the British form new units, new armies, or did they continue the old ones, or did they only have combinations of town militia, bodyguards and local armies?
We do not know.
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If the prestige troops were probably the horsemen, its likely that they had infantry.
The germanic settled as foederati in the Vth century acted as infantry. So does the Deisi Gaels in Wales.
Having good armour and good horse breed for war need lot of wealth, and only the kings and their retinues and the heirs of the roman aristocracy was able to afford such equipment, so we can even guess that most of the army was composed of infantry, from levies with simply bows or spear and shield to better warriors with some armor.
Welsh will become very famous for their use of the bow, and this may started at this age.
We also got a reference in Kulwch, welsh text from the XIIIth century but much earlier origin in the oral tradition, of Gwalchmai (Gawain), Arthur's nephew, who was the best of the knights and the best of the footmen.
"O niurt Ambrois ri Frangc ocus Brethan Letha."
"By the strenght of Ambrosius, king of the Franks and the Armorican Bretons."
Lebor Bretnach, Irish manuscript of the Historia Brittonum.
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Agraes / Morcant map Conmail / Benjamin Franckaert
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Robert, your reading is much wider than mine - do you know what happened in Gaul after the Visigoths and Franks settled? What model did the Late Roman units follow, surely their activities are much better documented than in Britain?
We may know next to nothing about what happened to the British Late Roman army, but it would be better to begin with a Gallic/Frankish/Visigothic model, than one fabricated out of thin air ... 
~ Paul Elliott
The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
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Quote:Robert, your reading is much wider than mine - do you know what happened in Gaul after the Visigoths and Franks settled? What model did the Late Roman units follow, surely their activities are much better documented than in Britain?
We may know next to nothing about what happened to the British Late Roman army, but it would be better to begin with a Gallic/Frankish/Visigothic model, than one fabricated out of thin air ...
I agree, which is why I try to get to know more about the Late Roman armies of Gaul.
The fate of these units is a difficult one. From the largest bulk, the Roman forces under Aegidius, we know the most. These seem to have consisted of a mix of Roman troops, Frankish federates and limitanei that originated in the Gallo-Roman provincials, but also from a growing number of citizens of Germanic descent. The army of Aegidius (and later commanded by Syagrius) fought as a 'Roman' army, and later went over to Clovis: the Roman army (exercitum Romanorum) is incorporated into Clovis' Frankish army (exercitus Francorum).
It would be wrong to see Clovis as a newly arrived invader like Hengist - Clovis' father had been magister militum, and Clovis could without doubt have been seen as much a Roman as many Gallo-Roman provincials. The former Roman army seems to have recognised that too, the model is similar to any Roman army going over to a new emperor.
Other units that we see fighting for the Franks are regional militia, which are named after their home towns. they are recognised as brave and good fighting men.
Lastly we have that enigmanic remark by Procopius about border troops who proudly show the battle standards of their Roman ancestors.
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Very interesting. So if the emergent leaders/tyrants had strong roots in the Romano-British aristocracy/upper echelons of the military, then perhaps a similar fate might fallen to the Roman legions. Interesting remark about limitanei fighting under imperial standards, and about local militias. At least it gives a possible framework upon which to hanf British theories of Roman army collapse/metamorphoses in Britain.
After the last legions cease to function, my interest in this period vanishes! So its interesting to me from that point of view...
~ Paul Elliott
The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
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Quote:Very interesting. So if the emergent leaders/tyrants had strong roots in the Romano-British aristocracy/upper echelons of the military, then perhaps a similar fate might fallen to the Roman legions. Interesting remark about limitanei fighting under imperial standards, and about local militias. At least it gives a possible framework upon which to hanf British theories of Roman army collapse/metamorphoses in Britain.
After the last legions cease to function, my interest in this period vanishes! So its interesting to me from that point of view...
It's very difficult to make siumilar claims for Britain, because Britain slipped from Roman control so much earlier than Gaul. Also, southern Gaul was always a hotspot of activity because it was the key to Italy as well as Spain, and as long as Roman control meant anything, Gaul was still held or fought over.
My guess for Roman units in Britain would be that if any large forces existed post-408, then these would have been disappearing into the guise of private armies within a generation or two. But I really see no larger units like legions or crack cavalry units present in Britain after Constantine III. Had there been any, there would have been a powerbase for yet another usurper. I think we may expect a lot of federate units and many limitanei forces, and some good comitatensan units. Possibly enough for a 'British government' to keep the peace. Until civil war started, of course, which seems to have happened in the 430s.
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