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Gashford · 11-26-2002, 09:58 AM

Hello all 
 
Have any of you heard the news of the lad killed with an artillery piece over the last couple of days on the UK? 
 
I am trying to track down some info on it? 
 
In light of this a quick question as well, what insurance do you all use when fighting, shooting missiles etc ... 
 
We have third paty insurance as a group and suggest that people take out their own accident insurance? 
 
All the best 
 
Graham

Gashford · 11-26-2002, 10:03 AM

Ahh never mind about the artillery story I have found it here: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2510573.stm 
 
However, I would still be interested in your insurance thoughts, I was surprised to find that a number of large groups I would have thought would be insured aren't. 
 
I am not trying to name and shame, but would just be interested in your thoughts on the subject. Personally I find it a bit irresponsible to put on shows for the public and not be insured, but maybe I am just an old man that moans a lot the group I am in would certainly agree! 
 
All the best 
 
Graham Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gashford>gashford</A> at: 11/26/02 2:50:07 pm

**Robert Vermaat** · 11-26-2002, 01:14 PM

Does insurance usually include humans being catpulted (possibly) into nets? EM 
 
As an aside, I found it telling that the BB did not mention they themelves suffered such a mishap during the takes for an entertainment programme with a very popular host (Noel Edmonds), though that was with an early bungee jump as I recll. 
 
Cheers, 
Robert

11-26-2002, 01:49 PM

I had at first thought you meant someone got killed perhaps by a bolt or a stone launched from an artillery piece. Don't you think this "human catapult" idea, should be best left to professional stuntmen? I can't believe the lack of common sense on some people's part. Insurance is great Graham, but for these people? They should spend the money on an IQ test. 
Magnus/Matt 
Optio 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=tiberiuslantaniusmagnus@romanarmytalk>tiberius lantanius magnus</A> at: 11/26/02 2:49:58 pm

Gashford · 11-26-2002, 01:53 PM

I agree entirely. 
 
When I first posted the thread I was under the impression that the catapult was at a show and a misshoot or break had caused the detah. Obviously not. 
 
However, I woudl be interested in hearing peoples views on thier groups insurance (no need to name groups if you don't want to). 
 
On the artillery front, when you shoot yours (whoever) do you get the public to get behind the shooting arc? Have you looked at your insurance to see what they say is the minimum, I only ask as I am trying to raise the awareness of insurance and also to see what people have out there. 
 
All the best 
 
Graham

11-26-2002, 03:15 PM

Salve 
 
Regarding range safety and the use of missile weapons in displays. We have a range of different catapaults and other missile weapons in the Roman Military Research Society, and follow these basic rules: 
 
A full safety check is made of each machine being used prior to the day's shoot. This includes the string, the arms and their attachments, the superstructure and the general operating of the machine (ie runners are not locked stiff because of damp etc). 
 
All personel must be fully armoured when servicing the balistae, and this includes helmets. 
 
Public are kept away roughly ten yards, sometimes more just in case ... 
 
We only fire at set targets put up on a range. This allows us to control the impact area and avoid any member of the public being skewered! It is vital to have sufficient extra space in the safety area to compensate for any overshoots. 
 
We have wardens who are posted at the limits of the arcs of fire to ensure that Joe Public doesn't blunder into the hot zone. All wardens are armoured and must carry a shield. 
 
All commands for firing are shouted out clearly and followed meticulously. This is not just for image, as it also allows the controller (Centurio!) to call a halt to things should a problem ever occur. 
 
Members of the public are allowed to handle the items, but only if supervised by a member of the society. They are never allowed to load, aim or bring any tension to the weapons themselves. Also, if a child wants to hold a bow, fine, but never let the little sod have any arrows at the same time! 
 
There are a number of ex military types in our society, so the above safety is more or less the same as the army's. If anyone else has any ideas which they want to add to this (i.e. don't strap yourself to a catapault as it's about to be fired) then please add them here. 
One of the great Health and Safety 'tools' (take that last word any way you want!) foisted on people like us is the risk assessment. If we could collectively hash together something like this for the more dangerous areas like catapaults, combat, field cooking etc then it would help all us should anything go horribly wrong. A Risk Assessment could help to prove due dilligence on your part if a member of the public decided to swallow a pilum the fast way. 
 
Any health and safety lawyers out there? 
 
Celer.

Caius Fabius · 11-27-2002, 05:02 AM

I have been a safety officer for re-enactment artillery, both ancient and 1800's black powder artillery. I was also a safety officer an innumerable tank gunnery courses while in the military (and small arms instructor for my brigade marksmanship team). I am a safety "nut". 
I know that here in the USA there is always the shadow of litigation looming over any event. A recent event required a 5 million US dollar liability policy, which cost $1500 cash! Think about it, 1000 pounds for a three day weekend of re-enacting! It becomes a real burden. There is a "Living History Association" that offers re-enactment groups individual liability insurance, and group insurance. You can also make sure that your "Legion" is a corporation, so that it has limits to liability, so if Joe Spectator steps in front of the cavalry charge after being warned, or sticks his face in front of the scorpion to watch the bolt, you might not lose you house, car and hunting dog in a litigation happy court system. 
 
I wonder, if some soldiers are out playing army as Romans with Dan Peterson's group, and one gets hurt badly and disabled, would it be a service connect disability, if it was on an official military sponsored event? 
 
CYA! CYA! CYA! and "Safety First, Second and Last"! Have fun and have a first aid kit! It does not hurt to have all members of your unit trained in basic first aid, and to make sure the local ambulance knows how to get to your event site, just in case. We usually coordinate with police and local ambulance, and let them know where we will be and what we will be doing, so they don't get surprised if they get a call to come out to where we are playing.

**Robert Vermaat** · 11-27-2002, 12:15 PM

I distinctly recall reading an older news bulletin about a piece of re-enacted artillery overshooting and breaking a glass window across the field somewhere in Britain, but I failed to retrieve it. 
 
Cheers, 
Robert

11-28-2002, 03:48 PM

Wasn't there also one about a trebuchet stone going through someone's roof in Brittain? 
Magnus/Matt 
Optio 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"

Caius Fabius · 11-29-2002, 03:37 AM

One of "Games Workshop 's" best sculpters lost part of his arm and his hand with a black powder cannon accident, I can't remember which one of the brothers it was. 
 
We have seen people get hurt with blackpowder slugs, wadding and even just powder. I helped make a safety film where we fired into a line of watermelons with blanks, to show the dangers. I have watched people "re-rolling" black powder charges while smoking a cigar, and adjusting cocked and loaded ballista from in front, so nothing surprises me much anymore. 
 
"Just before class started, I looked in the big book where all the world's history is written, and it said...." Neil J. Hackett, PhD ancient history, professor OSU, 1987

**Robert Vermaat** · 11-29-2002, 11:42 AM

Magnus, that may the one I remember. It happened in 1999 or in 2000 if memeory serves. 
 
Robert

11-29-2002, 03:54 PM

I feel bad for the kid and the family he has left behind, but I have to say this warrants a 'Darwin Award'. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for fun and games, But doing something like that was idiotic. 
 
As with anything that is adventurous there is risk involved. We all know it when we join or form a reenactment group."Hey I'm carrying sharp, pointed weapons....fancy that! I'd better use common sense not to hurt the person next to me." 
 
All insurance does is ruin a perfectly good event by making it expensive or sometimes unaffordable. I can barely afford the equipment. I know the way things are going here in the States we'll soon have to pay insurance to breathe air. 
 
A good set of safety standards should be enough to keep people from serious harm. Minor cuts and scrapes are a given. And If there is a trooper in your group who wants to be a rambo or shows no consideration for the guy next to him....give him the boot. 
 
We all enjoy this pasttime for its educational value, and the comraderie it fosters. It would be a shame not to be able to afford to do it.

Gashford · 11-29-2002, 04:26 PM

Is insurance different in the US. 
 
IN the UK we have a liability insurance for the group, a recommended personal injury insurance for everyone and the sites have their own site insurance. 
 
At least that is as I understand it. 
 
Graham 
www.ludus.org.uk

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