Hamata Breast Hooks

[Matt Lukes]

Now I'm curious- is the present thinking that the hamata's breast hooks were riveted to the shirt through the central button, or is it believed that the hooks were a separate piece? I ask because recently I've realized that there seems to be evidence for the hooks being separate, in the form of at least 3 artifacts consisting of both hooks and the central button in place and no extra shank on the connecting rivet (Vindonissa), and one specific artifact that was quite clearly never attached to anything- the small rivet that connects the three pieces being peened on the back.

Since the front 'flaps' of the doubler are already attached to the shirt by either two or 4 buttons, it really seems unnecessary for the hooks to also perform this task, so indeed there's no functional reason they couldn't be 'free'.

Any thoughts?

[Peroni]

Matt,

Why one method and not the other? Why can't both methods have been used? we have evidence of extant mail remains connected to the central rivet. (Chassenard burial and the Kirkburn shirt) and also as you say, examples with no remains.

Cavalry 'capes' may not have required the central fixing due to the shape and weight of the doubling. IMO it's the smaller fatter hooks that are from this type of doubling.

I tried using the 'buttons' as buttons on a mail shirt by leaving a gap in the mail to act like a button hole. This was so annoying as it kept coming undone. Speculative I know, but I ended up with a tie and ring system at the back of the 'button' these held in place perfectly.

[M. Demetrius]

That unhitching, if you can get the rivets to hold in the first place irritated me to the point that I finally just used this setup.
Inside: a small brass slot-headed bolt, a wide washer with small hole.
Outside: the latches, with hole drilled to fit bolt, which is shortened to appropriate length, and a "crown nut" with the corners filed off. (they used to call these "acorn nuts)

I know that's not really accurate, but a) it works, and b) solves the disassembly problem, and c) is actually removable with little trouble in the event that maintenance is needed, or if I decide not to wear the doubler sometimes, for whatever reason.

Farby? yeah, probably. But it works, and I'm happy with the look of it. The filed nut looks like a big rivet head, as seen in Peroni's photo above. I'm not advocating that anybody else use it, but after spending the better part of half a day with failing rivet assemblies, broken links of maille (there's considerable pressure on that center rivet) skinned knuckle, and utterly frayed nerves, I decided drastic measures were needed.

No doubt the Romans were much better at riveting than I am.

[Matt Lukes]

Matt,

Why one method and not the other? Why can't both methods have been used? we have evidence of extant mail remains connected to the central rivet. (Chassenard burial and the Kirkburn shirt) and also as you say, examples with no remains.

Quite so- I did not mean to have suggested there was only one method and should have phrased the question better. So then there are artifacts that clearly show a long central rivet that is associated with the remains of the mail then? My suggestion is not that because the hooks are not in association with mail that the had to be separate, although this follows too, but more that they exist as a complete unit- not as separate only because the mail had disintegrated.

I don't yet have a hamata myself, so had only wondered about the functionality of the 'buttons' actually being buttons and not simply studs. It occurred to me that unbuttoning would be a problem (as you indeed found Adrian), although I'd thought that simply knotting at leather thong through the open links would be sufficient to keep this from happening- or did you try it and it failed?

I'm not surprised to hear you had trouble with the rivets David- peening a long rivet that's not securely held is not easy. Your solution may not be particularly historically-accurate, but it works!

[Marcus Mummius]

I can say the loose hooks certainly work. They stay in place very well.

I also think the names at the back might be an argument for loose hooks. The hooks must be detached from the vest to inscribe the name. So either they were loose or the hooks would have to been detached from the vest when the name was added. The names could be added because the loose hooks were rather easy to lose...

I also was surprised to see that most of the original hooks were rather small in size. Much smaller than most hooks you see on reenactor hamata out there...

Vale,

[M. Demetrius]

I also was surprised to see that most of the original hooks were rather small in size. Much smaller than most hooks you see on reenactor hamata out there.

Probably because just about all the ones people get are made at the same place, Raymond's Quiet Press.

There are others, no doubt, but that "seahorse head" shape seems to be the one most often seen, isn't it? Hard to imagine that as being the absolute ONLY ones ever made.

[Matt Lukes]

All the real ones I've ever seen either in diagrams, images or that I actually have in my collection have a ram's head terminus and are considerably more substantial than the simple 'seahorse' type (good description :wink: ) of which I've not seen a single original...

[M. Demetrius]

All the real ones I've ever seen either in diagrams, images or that I actually have in my collection have a ram's head terminus

Could you send up a picture? I know someone who casts in bronze, and you never know, there could be a chance we could coax a few from the foundry...

[Matt Lukes]

Oh I make these myself- no need to coax anything

[M. Demetrius]

Well, can we coax a picture?? :wink:

[Tarbicus]

link from old RAT