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***Praefectusclassis*** · 11-28-2002, 03:15 PM

Goffredo, I guess you're basically correct. Trouble with the word 'historian' is that it's not a protected word. Anyone can call him/herself historian. Professional historians are supposed to lift the study of history above the level of interpretational storytelling. This is (hopefully) achieved by the application of certain scientific methods, such as giving sources - something which is often forgotten on this forum! Greets 
 
Jasper

Goffredo · 11-28-2002, 04:08 PM

I kept writing after Japers' post. 
 
I think we diverge even more. But we will talk more at a nice dinner in Xanten. 
 
By the way Jasper I still hope to see some of the pictures you shot in Rome. If you don't post them I do hope you bring them with you in Xanten.

Goffredo · 11-28-2002, 04:12 PM

I was told some high school student wrote in his history test that 
 
"The Odyssey was not written by Homer but by another man with the same name". 
 
I would not have flunked the student but offered him a beer!

**Robert Vermaat** · 11-29-2002, 12:00 PM

Goffredo, if I was the one who stated this, I'll try and explain. It is just BECAUSE history is as week a medium as you so correctly say it is, that we can't trust these apparently very old legends. You say the tale got 'frozen', but how can you possibly prove that? When we have a written version of any legend, it only goes back as far as that, and no-one, barring other, varying, written version, can tell if this version was the correct one, or one already hopelessly altered in writing, or in the oral stage before that. You and others have apparently the idea that we can look back millenia in time through these stories, most of which have indeed been commited to writing only during Roman times, or much later. 
 
So, legends are not older than a 1000 years, but their first known versions are. No-one can look back beyond that without hypothesizing. 
 
Troy, mayhave been a complete invention, although I do not believe that (I emphasise the word 'believe'). 
The Old Testament? Stoy does not agree with archeology at many point, but does at others - you tell me! 
The Longobards? Of course they are historical. 
Romulus and Remus? Clear foundation legend, but maybe the persons lived. 
 
IMHO, of course. 
 
Cheers, 
Robert 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 11/30/02 3:54:46 pm

Goffredo · 11-29-2002, 12:50 PM

Hi Vorty 
what I mean by "frozen" is the following: 
 
IF one assumes Homer, or the other guy with the same name, did not completely invent the story but based himself on a mixage of popular stories at the time, then after him no substantial variations were made to the story. The homer version is the one passed down from then on. 
 
Oral traditions are not that perfect as every person may be tempted to add or delete according to his or his public' taste, or even memory loss. 
 
Once something is written down then is becomes relatively frozen. Of course nothing witten is truely absolutely frozen, as historians well know, especially before the invention of the press (i.e. 90 percent of written history). 
 
But of course frozen stories and even printed ones aren't necessarily true. A legend can be a bunch of crap just as a printed book with fancy fonts and plots. 
 
p.s. the Longobards are historical. I live in Italy and see their remains and contributions. How much of their saga is legend? 
 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=goffredo>goffredo</A> at: 11/29/02 2:05:47 pm

**Robert Vermaat** · 11-30-2002, 03:00 PM

I agree with your definition of 'frozen' tales, barring the time-limit of the earliest copy. Even when we agree that Homer was the firtst to cause this tale or group of tales to writing, our earliest copy (or sometimes a quote) defines the historical horizon of the tale. Indeed, oral history, depite some discussions, is not what is it reputed to be. Mostly, this is because there were no 'true' stories, just interesting and good stories: what i mean to say is that none of the transporting mediums (bards, priest, travellers) was expected to retell a tale in a supposed original version. Items could be added, places could change to amuse the listeners. The first to write it down did indeed more or less 'freeze' it. 
 
Cheers, 
Robert

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