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Hello
I am just finishing an illustration of a dual chariot (circa 15th century BC).
Can anyone help me to check if all the details are corrected? Any commentary is wellcome.
Thanks
Best regards
JP Vieira
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Hey, looks good to me! Heck, better than the one McBride did in the Osprey book on Mycenaeans--he likes to use Percherons for horses...
You should post over on the Bronze Age Center, where there are more guys who know their chariots better than I do. Some of them will debate the use of the spear by a charioteer, but that's half the fun.
http://s8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_Center/index.php ?
And I won't debate the dating issue here, it's not relevant! Great work, keep it up!
Matthew
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I'm no expert, but from what I have read and seen of the originals (artistic portrayals of course, I am at least a thousand years younger :wink: ) this looks really good to me....
You've obviously studied the various depictions..
the ponies look a little plumper than the originals, or is it the angle...they seemed to have long shallow backs and rather plump bottoms or withers...although that is probably artistic licence......they also liked plump bottomed women in those days I believe...lol
I love this drawing.... 
regards
Arthes
Cristina
The Hoplite Association
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The enemy is less likely to get wind of an advance of cavalry, if the orders for march were passed from mouth to mouth rather than announced by voice of herald, or public notice. Xenophon
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The chariot and horses are good. The warriors are wonderfully illustrated but are not accurate IMO. The primary weapon of the Mykenaian charioteer is the bow. He was a chariot archer just like every other culture around him at the time - Egypt, Hatti, Canaan, India, China, etc. It is likely that a spear was carried but it was not the primary weapon. I am currently exploring the possibility that the Dendra panoply was actually worn by the driver and not the passenger. If you look at other chariot cultures it seems that the driver is actually more heavily armoured than the passenger. Often only the driver has arm and neck protection, for example. Two good books are Drews' "End of the Bronze Age" and Cotterell's "Chariot".
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hi
i wont focus on the historical part but the artistic. Overall its a fine work, but i would suggest to work more on the mountainous background. From what i see you use too much multiply mode. But if its overworked it tends to burn the color. The left horse needs abit work as the way it bents its neck is abit stiff. From what i pressume its the same horse with diffrent colors and rotated neck.
The chariot is very good illustrated but only one note. If its not based on somekind of 3dbase, its much more realistic in style than the warriors. The best for the synthesis of an image is to come out as uniform not one style here and a different there.
Hope i helped.
aka Yannis
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Dan is probaly correct about the driver wearing the "Dendra" armor.
The "fighter" would wear a lighter panoply and probably had a shield and javelines available, should he choose to dismount.
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Hello
Many thanks to all for your contributions.
I enjoyed particulary the remarks made about the (un) armoured driver.
Thinking of it, it makes sense that the driver is armoured; after all if is stricken then the chariot is no longer usefull. The same principle apllies to other "vehicules" in the ancient world such as horses and, particullary, elephants. What kind of armour, besides the dendra, would be appropriated for the driver?
Best regards
JP Vieira
Ps As for the artistic part, commented particullary by Yannis and Cristina, they are correected and I shall take their advice. Many thanks to all, again
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Hello
I have been researching possible armour for the driver, ans came across with Peter Connolly's The ancient Greece of Odysseus. There is an illustrations featuring armour from the myceaneans and trojans. Wich one of the mycenean armour would be suitable for the driver?
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JP Vieira
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Good job. By way of suggestions, I should say:
1st. You'd need a baldric across the chest for the sword's suspension, not a belt. And I dont' find it probable that the charioteer would be carrying a sword.
2nd. The sword type seems a bit old for the time Dendra's panoply was in use. You took it from the time of Circle A, while Dendra is a bit later (c. 1400 or later). I'd recommend a later sword type, except if the man is carrying an obsolete heirloom.
3rd. A big horsehair crest for a boar's tusk helmet is doubtful. But it COULD be OK
4th. Horses would probably be carrying a bit with long cheekpieces better than a round spiked one. But in any case, the small phalera shown does not qualify as a bit.
Best Regards
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You need to narrow down a time period. The style of combat in the 14th C varies considerably to the combat in the 12th C.
In the 14th C the chariot was used as a platform for chariot archers. The only real alternative to the Dendra panoply would be a knee length scale corselet called a sariam.
By the 12th C the chariot seems to have evolved into a vehicle for javelineers or as a "battle taxi" described in the Iliad. Hand to hand combat is now practiced by the elite. Armour gets lighter both for the driver and his passenger and you can use many of the suggestions in Connolly's illustration. It is unlikely that the full Dendra panoply was worn much, if at all, during this time.
Chariots remain in use largely by skirmishers until the time of Cyrus. Xenophon [Anabasis, 6.1.29] specifically says that these chariots were the first not to act like Homeric chariots. Around this time the chariot evolves into a heavier vehicle for "shock" tactics. By this time the archer had moved from chariot to horseback to become a horse archer.
The relevant passage is below. Note that the armour worn by the driver provided complete coverage (only the eyes were unprotected). Note also that this passage contradicts the theory that early charioteers were lancers. Xenophon states that they were skirmishers, not heavy troops, and continued to be used so until the time of Cyrus:
Xenophon, Anabasis, 6.1
[27]Besides, with the chariots taken from the enemy and with whatever others he could get he equipped a corps of chariots of his own. The method of managing a chariot employed of old at Troy and that in vogue among the Cyrenaeans even unto this day he abolished; for in previous times people in Media and in Syria and in Arabia, and all the people in Asia used the chariot just as the Cyrenaeans now do. [28] But it seemed to him that inasmuch as the best men were mounted on the chariots, that part which might have been the chief strength of the army acted only the part of skirmishers and did not contribute anything of importance to the victory. For three hundred chariots call for three hundred combatants and require twelve hundred horses. And the fighting men must of course have as drivers the men in whom they have most confidence, that is, the best men to be had. That makes three hundred more, who do not do the enemy the least harm. [29] So he abolished this method of handling chariots, and in place of it he had chariots of war constructed with strong wheels, so that they might not easily be broken, and with long axles; for anything broad is less likely to be overturned. The box for the driver he constructed out of strong timbers in the form of a turret; and this rose in height to the drivers' elbows, so that they could manage the horses by reaching over the top of the box; and, besides, he covered the drivers with mail, all except their eyes. [30] On both sides of the wheels, moreover, he attached to the axles steel scythes about two cubits long and beneath the axles other scythes pointing down toward the ground; this was so arranged with the intention of hurling the chariots into the midst of the enemy. And as Cyrus constructed them at that time, such even to this day are the chariots in use in the king's dominions.
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Hello Howard and thanks for your help.
Do you have any pictorial represeantation of the sariam?
I have been searching but could not find any...
Do you think it's something like the one represented in Peter Connolly's The ancient greece of Odysseus?
Many thanks
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JP Vieira
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Very similar. The scales on the arms are smaller than those on the torso - similar to how Connolly has depicted them. The corselet should reach down to the knees and Mykenaian scales seem to be longer and narrower than those further east.
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Mycenean scales were shorter than the Egyptian ones but the the were not unusuall for Bronze age Greeks to use imported or even captured armor.
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Hello
Do you beleive that I could base the sariam on this one form Osprey's Ancient Armies of The mIddle East?
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k1/JP ... le0041.jpg
It is from an Hitite Charioteer.
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JP Vieira
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Stefanos is right. Mykenaian scales are shorter, not longer than Middle Eastern examples. I think Connolly's illustration is more accurate than Osprey's for Mykenaian armour.
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