Hamata Dilemma

[Primvs Pavlvs]

I am at a point of having to make a choice of what to purchase, or make.

I am considering a few options here.

1. Buy and existing maile shirt preferably riveted from Ebay, or another vendor, and modifying it to a Roman style. This would have all riveted rings, and have really large rings

2. Have someone knit a totally butted shirt for me, or do it myself

3. Purchase solid rings, and make butted rings in the proper wire size for Roman and knitting my own shirt.

So I would like to get some input here from others who have made, or have done what I am planning to do.

How hard was it to make your own?

How long did it take?

[jvrjenivs]

Ok, I've had to choise somethink simular some time ago.

Because I'm a simple poor student, the disicion to let someone make a good one for me was not possible. I simply couldn't afford that. Because I'd like to have little rings (I now use 4.5 mm inner diameter) I've decided to make one myself (totally butted mail, home-make rings), because it will give you exactly the shirt as you wantet it, and I enjoy making stuff on my own. I think its now a littel 75 hours of work ago that I startet and I have a piece of 50 x 20 cm ready (a little 7500 rings I guess), and I'm totally satisfied with my work, and like to see the piece growing. Hope it will be ready in about 1.5 year.

[Caius Fabius]

it depends on how accurate you want to be.

If you make a proper spinning rod and use a drill, you can spin wire into ring coils easily enough. The cutting is the slave labor, which I usually did while watching TV or films. It also will build a good grip. Or you can use a dremel tool and cut the links that way.

The knitting of butted mail is simple once you get the system, make strips of 4 in 1, the knit those together, again, while watching TV or something.

We made a Norman floor length horseman's hauberk in about 4 weeks, just having three or four guys sitting around watching movies on weekends and 2 or 3 nights a week.

It would be good to actually harden the metal rings after you are finished, using heat and quenching. If you use thin wire, they will start to come apart otherwise. This is especially true getting on and off a horse. The heat treating was done via a contract, sine we did not have a way to heat the whole set of mail evenly.

If you are making a hip length set, the weight is not as bad, but the heat treating is still a great idea. You can use electric fencing wire to make your rings. Make sure you get tools that are warrantied. We would replace our "Craftsman" ™ cutters about once every couple of months when we were making mail as a business.

There are some online resources for learning to make maille, or you can get a copy of the "Knowne World Handbooke" which has a chapter about maille making.

[Tiberius]

PAVLVS

IMHO, I prefer the stamped ring/butted ring combo. Let me tell you why.
First of all, I've made enough hamata to sink a galley. Some of the hamata you might have seen on Terry Nix's site was made by me a long time ago, back when I just made my loricae with butted rings.

A few years ago I was able to visit relatives in England, and saw some groups (who will remain nameless) using punched rings alternating with butted rings. It is the closest thing to the stamped/riveted looking I've ever seen. Needless to say, I began making mine the same way. The main problem was deciding upon the size of the stamped ring, i.e., ring thickness.

My first attempt was too thick, my second was too thin. I now believe I have hit the mark. To make the lorica a bit more rigid, the butted rings are slightly smaller than the punched rings. This draws the punched rings closer without giving up too much flexibility.

Another benefit is that stamped rings don't have to be worked. I have reduced my time in making a lorica hamata by one third, from 60 hours down to 40 hours, which does not include the leathering. (My doublers for the shoulders are full leather, not just trimmed)

Making your own is more a matter of time than skill. I don't make my own stamped rings, which is costly, but you make up the difference in time and looks. I am just finishing up another hamata, and I'll post pics of it, so you may see for yourself.

Jeff/Tiberius
LEG~XX

[FAVENTIANVS]

I took seven months to make my butted rings one... I'll never do it again.

[Matthew Amt]

Is Deepeeka going to improve their hamata? Hopefully the RAT expedition will include that.

There is at least one other company that is working on Roman mail. What I've seen from them looks hopeful, and their estimated price was unbelievably low, but again it will take a few months to see anything in stock.

With all these options in the near future, I don't know if I would let anyone in my group get more butted mail. Alternating butted and solid rings might be more of an option, but I really think the time has come to start raising the bar. Certainly I'll never make or buy any butted Roman mail for myself. (I already have custody of a butted hamata.) The worst riveted mail currently out there is not necessarily better than butted (it doesn't look better from any distance!), but the next level up is (in my mind) worlds better than the best butted even if it isn't strictly accurate for Roman mail.

Hey, Tiberius--we have GOT to get you some riveting tools, eh? Just trying to make your life easier, hee hee....

It's still a great dilemma and a very tough choice, but I'd recommend against butted links in general.

Valete,

Matthew

[arklore70]

Gents,
I helped Chris at Find It Armory design the Roman Mail he will be selling.

He will be selling it for $425.00 USD.

I will be making a seperate post on it.

I also have the first one off the production line.

Mike

[Tarbicus]

Gents,
I helped Chris at Find It Armory design the Roman Mail he will be selling.

He will be selling it for $425.00 USD.

I will be making a seperate post on it.

I also have the first one off the production line.

Mike

Last time I spoke to them they didn't export out of the US. Will they be changing that policy, do you know?

[Erik D. Schmid]

Matt: From what I've heard, you can still get a "custom made" hamata from them, as other folks have done.

If you order a custom one now it will be February at the earliest before you receive it. This is for their current style. :roll:

Delays and frustration abound

The understatement of the year. :evil:

[Franklin]

At one time www.forth-armory.com was making arguably some of the most accurate flat cross-section riveted mail to be found anywhere, both all-riveted shirts and alternating riveted/solid link shirts. His products were designed with the Medieval reenactor in mind, but throw on a quick doubler and you've got yourself a hamata.

His hauberks went for about 1000 USD, but a quick glance at his website notes that every single products is "out of stock". No clue if he's still in business but it'd definitely be worth a quick email.

The other great thing about Stephen (the owner) is that he sold do-it-yourself kits, with pre-flattened, pre-punched "ready to rivet" rings. Kind of a happy medium between the time/money conundrum.

At the very least his site is a great wealth of information. He makes a very convincing argument (with tons of great pics!) for flattened riveted mail versus butted round-stock, or even versus cheapy Indian riveted stuff for that matter.

[Erik D. Schmid]

Actually, the shirts Steve was selling would not really work as they looked nothing like Roman mail. The ones now being offered by Find-it Armoury look to be the most accurate of the mass-produced mail now available.

[Franklin]

Actually, the shirts Steve was selling would not really work as they looked nothing like Roman mail.

Do you mean the shape of the garments, or the design of the rings themselves?

If you're referring to the garments then I totally agree, but I as I mentioned I think they could be modified with very little difficulty. Especially with the loose rings/rivets he offers for DIY-ers.

As for the rings themselves, I still think he might have the best thing going.

[Franklin]

But again, it may be a moot point if he's not in business anymore.

[Erik D. Schmid]

The links themselves.

[Franklin]

The links themselves.

Fair enough. What are some of the hallmarks of Roman links that you look for?

(I don't think we're going off-topic; still relevant to PP's original question)