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I know this is more Byzantine history, but I could not think of a more knowledgeable place. 
[quote]The Byzantines were leaders and innovators in the field of artillery. The first Mediterranean civilization to utilize the trebuchet was Byzantium. The Byzantines not only improved upon the artillery technology that they had acquired from Asia, but they also found new tactical uses for it. They adopted the “hand-trebuchet,â€
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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I can't visualize it yet... :? Any image?
![[Image: 120px-Septimani_seniores_shield_pattern.svg.png]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Septimani_seniores_shield_pattern.svg/120px-Septimani_seniores_shield_pattern.svg.png) ![[Image: Estalada.gif]](http://webs.racocatala.cat/esteladaanimada/Estalada.gif)
Ivan Perelló
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Sounds interesting.
Their was a "human powered" trebuchet used in the middle ages. This involved a bunch of people hanging from ropes to provide the counterweight for the trebuchet. This may be what is meant. Just a guess. The only other possibility is the pole sling. But that is too much of a stretch.
It would be nice to have the precise reference. The first part of the word makes perfect sense: xeiro cheiro (however you transliterate the chi). is of course hand. What about the second half? Mangana? I assume that it is related to "to magganon" a charm? Curious. mind you. my meagre knowledge of greek ends in the classical age. Perhaps it is meant as a general reference to a contrivance or machine?
Kevin
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gr,
Jeroen Pelgrom
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Yes.
That is the one I tried to describe. What do you think? Could that be the "hand trebuchet"?
Just a note to stir up Aitor. How does this word "cheiromangana" compare to the more familiar "cheiroballistra" ? The cheiroballistra is held by hand. Drawing a parralel one would almost expect the cheiromangana to be held by hand, if they were both described at the same time. It makes sense that over the intervening centuries the word usage has changed.
Alan Wilkins (JRMES II, 2000, page 91) mentions the survival of the cheiroballistra into Byzantine times. Here he quotes the use of the word cheirotoxobolistron from De administrando imperio of the tenth century. So as late as the tenth century the cheiro- part of the noun probably meant held by hand. Wilkins other references are of course to the carroballistae.
Not really very helpful, is it?
From a scholary point of view, I would suggest you look up the exact word used (forget the translations). Then find a concordancxe of all the authors. Check the context and see if you can glean any additional meaning from the context. Then check the two components of the word (cheiro- and -mangana) and all of their compounds. The translators may have taken the easy way out and named the machine after the more familiar trebuchet.
Kevin
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Quote:There was a "human powered" trebuchet used in the middle ages
I'm unfamiliar with the cheiromangana, but other cheiro-words suggest use of the hands (i.e., not necessarily held in the hands).
For example, a cheirographia is a handwritten report (i.e., a report generated by hand); a cheirotonia is a show of hands (i.e., voting using the hand). The well-known cheirolabe is a device that works by turning a handle ( labê) "by hand".
So, as Kevin says, the cheiromangana may simply be a hand-operated version of an existing weapon. Not necessarily hand- held, but certainly hand-operated or hand-powered.
(As for mangana, some link with mangonel sounds plausible?)
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Oops... First time I hear about the cheiromangana! :oops:
Anyway, there is little to extract just from a name... :?
As Duncan has mentioned, the involvement of the term 'hand' does not forcibly mean that it was a hand-held weapon but, to my mind, the other weapons whose names started by 'cheiro-' were hand-held weapons and, hence, this could be the case with the 'hand-mangonel'
I think that 'hand-held' or even 'portable' and 'mangonel' are contradictory words if we understand 'mangonel' as a counter-weighted stone-shooter.
Anyway, if we simplify the machine to the extreme, then the word 'cheiromanganon' could simply hide a 'fustibulum', as Kevin has cleverly suggested 8)
Aitor
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
Rolf Steiner
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Manganon or mangani means a device where somethinh can be coiled arround a wheel. Today mangani the call in the villages the rollong cylinder that they use ti oil the rope when they lift the bucket from a whell.
So manganon definetly implies the use of thongs coiled arround cylinders or wheels.
I suspect it must be the cheirobalistra presented in the Roman Section.
Hope it helps.
Kind regards
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Perhaps it is time to introduce a Byzantine Forum that goes beyond late antiquity, after all the "Byzantines" self identified as Rhomaioi. The Empire's native Greek name was Romanνa or Basileνa Romaνon, a direct translation of the Latin name of the Roman Empire, Imperium Romanorum. The term Byzantine Empire was invented in 1557, about a century after the fall of Constantinople by the historian Hieronymus Wolf, who introduced a system of Byzantine historiography in his work Corpus Historiae Byzantinae.
A lot of work has been done in recent years on translating Byzantine military and siege manuals that goes way beyond the Osprey material. Dumbarton Oaks and others have extract material available on line gratis which covers this particular topic. See [url:y78w156z]http://www.doaks.org/DOP54/DP54ch4.pdf[/url]
In this extract of Dumbarton Oaks Papers, No. 54, Paul E Chevedden says " The pole-framed trebuchet was identified as an alakation and a lithobolos, while the pole-framed “hand-trebuchet,â€
Peter Raftos
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Skylitzes fol 166r portrays a three man version:
Peter Raftos
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Quote:Skylitzes fol 166r portrays a three man version:
Three man or three man depicted? If more men had to operate it, there would not have been room in the image. Art can decieve.
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Good point Robert. I just checked the image at a higher reolution and two men are pulling the rope while one loads. Skylitzes fol 151r shows four men pulling four ropes.
Peter Raftos
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Mmmmh... A traction trebuchet then... :?
The pole holding the frame is stuck in the ground while the team (just a two man team depicted on John Skylitzes' book, the third man is loading the stone on the sling) pulls down the rope. Anyway, a one-man 'team'? :? shock:
Many thanks for the information, Peter!
Aitor
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
Rolf Steiner
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My pleasure Aitor,
You have probably seen these sites but they should be of interest to others:
[url:zcciw3he]http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/mccotter1.htm[/url]
[url:zcciw3he]http://www.middelaldercentret.dk/acta.html#types[/url]
[url:zcciw3he]http://members.iinet.com.au/~rmine/gctrebs.html#ttreb[/url]
[url:zcciw3he]http://www.trebuchet.com/[/url]
[url:zcciw3he]http://www.redstoneprojects.com/trebuchetstore/siege_engines_main.html[/url]
[url:zcciw3he]http://www.siege-engine.com/[/url]
Peter Raftos
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Great staff Peter. Thanks.
After having a look I saw, a few desighns with the "fibers coiled round wheels". So I feel the term CHEIROMANGANA can be applied to number of engines in the sence that they were "manually operated".
In Greek CHEIROMANGANA does not only mean "handheld" MANGANA but also "manually operated" MANGANA.
Kind regards
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