Leather Cuirass

[MeinPanzer]

thorax ek dermatos

Doesn´t it say "thorax made of skin/hide"? Where comes "leather" in here? Going for "skin/hide" would, then again, explain the "standing" shoulder flaps on the vase paintings, btw.

And ask yourselves: what would you rather wear: Armour made from leather or from hide?.
I´d wear hide.

What is the specific term for leather as opposed to hide?

[Kai]

Actually, 'derma' can also mean leather, at least that is what my dictionary (Gemoll) says.

While working on a new catalogue for the Pergamon-Museum Berlin, I came across this vase:



Although it has been published back in the 19th century, noone has identified that kind of cuirass. What do you think, could it be a spolas? Please keep in mind that a warrior's eidolon is depicted, i.e. he has died in that armour and nothing is missing.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Have you ever thought that he might not be wearing cuirass at all?
Read this thread:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=16660
Khaire
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

I agree with Giannis. It is a 'myth' to think all hoplites wore body armour - throughout the period, there are many depictions of Hoplites without it, especially after the Persian Wars when 'real' scenes become more prominent than mythological scenes. ( Another 'myth' is that Hoplite helmets always have crests - most did not ! )

[geala]

Then, how would you interprete the two horizontal lines at the belly under which the chiton behaves like a chiton with pleats but above as one without, appearing strangely narrow? It would be an rather uncommon belt, if it is interpreted as one. And that the artist used one or two lines (as far as I see) to show the lower hems of the chiton but three lines to show the hems at the arm holes?

It could be a chiton only but could also be a form of jerkin over a chiton. I prefer the latter interpretation.

[Tarbicus]

Felt can be shaped, is flexible, makes excellent armour, and was a known textile.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Much speculation in my opinion,Jim.With the the same logic we should start talking about felt linothoraxes,then.
What we actually see is just one line where the upper part is folded.This could be anything,even a pleat!Look how loose the garment is under the arms!Really we have discussed the same thing in enother two threads!Wolfgang,you've already said you search for some thick overgarment for your re-enactment in the cold North,but I'm afraid this is not what you seek,either...
We often forget how difficult it is to paint in this technique,and in Black figure it's much more difficult than in red figure ones.If the poor painter does not paint a single detail we start accusing him that he didn't paint what the obvious is.(Actually,we do well to think about every single posibility,otherwise we'd stay stable,but in some cases the obvious is obvious)
Khairete
Giannis

[Tarbicus]

I wasn't saying it is felt, just a reminder that there are other possibilities, no matter how remote they may be.

[Kai]

So you are arguing for a rather poorly painted chiton, Giannis? Well, I do think about that, too, but atm I am inclined to disagree.

The drapery on the lower part is clearly different and in general following the lines at the waist closely is helpful. I had some trouble explaining the horizontal lines when thinking of a single chiton and the behaviour of the drapery above and especially below them, as it seems the drapery below them is affected by them. Also note the fabric over the right leg, if it was one piece of cloth only, it’s upper part would also lie on it. The more reasonable explanation is a heavy overgarment resting on the chiton, thus moving the drapes.
Of course, it is not a metallic cuirass nor a shoulder-piece corselet, consequently I think of a spolas, though I am still not sure about it at all.



In general he is quite well armed, greaves, helmet, shield, spear and sword. The shield is of Boiotian type, which means a lot, since even if you disagree with the notion that this type of shield was attributed only to Homeric heroes in vase painting, it is anyway an extraordinary piece worth of rich aristocrats, who would not go into battle without cuirass, or, who would be depicted in heroic nudity. However, a spolas, if it is a spolas, is not what one would expect neither… This garment/cuirass and this shield are a strange composition.

The vase is dated 520-510 BC btw and I fully agree albeit tending towards the later date. This is a time long before the developments of the Persian and Peloponnesian Wars with their increasing number of hoplites.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Ok,I'm sure you won't agree these three men,no matter if they're Greeks or Skythians,or if they're about to wear a thorax or not,are wearing a simple chiton,right?

You'll say that the sleeves look strange and most importandly that there are no pleats.But don't you find it strange that the Skythian trousers never have pleats in greek art,although we know this was not the case?
The reason why the lower pleats are depicted clearly while the upper ones are only depicted SOME times,is that the chiton was constructed in such a way that it had to form those stylized lower pleats and curves.They didn't pull the fabric up to produce this efect,but they cut and folded the fabric,and this is why all lower parts in many vases of a long range of time are identical.The upper part was left as it was and so pleats were left to the mood of the painter.However,the hemlines and the loosen fabric under the arms is a general characteristic,even if pleats are depicted or not.Take a look on these photos,though not very clear.

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/hoprest.jpg
http://www.larp.com/hoplite/hopside.jpg
Compare them with Matt Amt's chiton,too.Had he not a scabard,the pleats in the upper part would be even fewer.Compare them with the lower part!

Do not rely totally in such details as how the fabrich is gathered by the movement.I could remind you that his thighs as too thick,that his wing is under his right arm,that the crest has a strange white line on the top or that the nose guard of his helmet has no thickness :lol:
But these are not points to suggest anything,are they!
Khaire
Giannis

P.S. You're right to believe I'd react to the idea that only Homeric heroes carry the boeotian shield,but I also dissagree that this nessesarily was a more expensive weapon than the hoplon.It was just an earlier type still in use probably in some places by ordinary hoplites even in classical times.You have a point thought that in 520-510 most hoplites even in Athens would have been aristocrats.

[geala]

Sorry Giannis, all I could say from the first look to your posted picture is that the three persons wear a kind of jerkin over a chiton or as a upper garment together with hose-like trousers (which might be cut to the bias and therefore without pleats). It is even more clear than in the picture posted by Kai. :wink:

Otherwise I cannot explain the curved lines at the bellies. For me it is impossible to interprete it as a belt with bulky cloth around.

I will have a look to my books with vase paintings with chitons. If many chitons, also in a civilian ambience, are depicted in the same manner as in your picture it could be interpreted as an artistic manner to show chitons, like you imply. Otherwise it is hard to believe for me.

And don't take my lust to find thick garments (it is clear that they existed in one form or another for practicle reasons) too seriously, for the most times in the end I'm able to master my fantasy.

[geala]

Could someone share the secret with me how to attach a picture and be able to write below, attach another picture and write below...?
I can only attach pictures at the end of a post. :?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

You press the Img button then you paste the url and then again the *Img.You press Enter and you write your message.then again Enter and you continue with the rest of the pics.Hope I helped
Khaire
Giannis

[geala]

Thanks, but then the pictures have to be in the web? They are on my hard drive.

I chose only 9 pictures from which I made fotos but it is not possible to attach all of them with the attachment mode. I will try again tomorrow.

What I can say now is that I think Giannis has good reason for his interpretaion that the "pleats below belt/wavy fur above-garments" are just chitons. Even in my very limited sources many chitons are depicted in that manner and I know that Giannis has presumably a lot more of good material available.

But I don't think the warrior posted by Kai and the three warriors posted by Giannis fall in the same category.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Wolfgang,I think the only way to post here is to have the pics somewhere in the web.For example photobucket.com. Sign up and download there your pics,it's very useful in a forum like this.

Well,trying to shed some light in the chiton-jerkin-thorax-spolas or anything else-thing,I did a quick search in my vase photos.Most of them depict soldiers because I usually save photos that have to do with warfare.
Here they are:

He's clearly not a hoplite and he's wearing extra defence so I take the undergarment as a chiton-no pleats like the lower part.

Again not hoplite.You could say it is an overgarment,but see how bulcky it is near the belt.For me,another chiton.

Again not a soldier.The Medusa is wearing a chiton with pleats shown in the upper part.Perseus is wearing an identical one,without pleats.