05-19-2007, 01:57 AM
To Dan ; I should have explained myself better - leather/textile armours are more resistant than metal to some types of weapon ( but less resistant to others ).All three types I mentioned have been shown to adequately resist blows between 30-40 Joules of kinetic energy. Armour resistance is probably better discussed on Giannis new thread. I mean to post some basic information soon - see you there ? It is a pity that the Williams book you refer to isn't readily available, so it would seem we must soldier on without it.
As to the Sarmatian coat on TC, yes, the same problem applies as to all artistic depictions - you can't really tell what it is made of ( but you most certainly couldn't plausibly put forward a dozen reconstructions !)When you take all the factors into account (shape, fastenings, likely materials available etc ) leather is by far the best bet.
Where does the idea that the shoulder pieces on tube-and -yoke corselets is "springy" come from ? They might be, but the depictions of Patroclus on the Sosias painter's cup and the Douris cup of Hoplites dressing ( the latter simplified, and incorrectly dated, on p.39 of Connolly, "Greek Armies" and also "Greece and Rome at war" ) could just as easily be simply 'thrown back' - if they were a 'soft' material and relatively thick they would stand up as shown. What do re-enactors who have made these corselets (using leather, line, or composite)find ?
I suspect that the whole idea of 'glued layers of linen' goes no further than Connolly's hypothesis.
To Magnus ; I couldn't agree more with Christian ! If you are going to put forward a premise, then support it ! I have, listing my sources. You put forward the premise "Leather Sucks!" - well, where's your evidence? eh?there is anecdotal evidence elsewhere on this forum that leather resists cuts/thrusts very well, and that glued linen does not. In any event, the viability of different materials is perhaps best left to Giannis thread already referred to.
To Matthew Amt , greetings and salutations!! Your sites on Roman and Hoplite reconstructions are absolute "goldmines" of information, and models of their kind.
Let us agree that Magnus is correct to say that a "best guess" ( and let's face it, given the paucity of information, that's what we are debating here ) should be based on all the information available, and preferably evidence from more than one discipline. You have put forward a summary of evidence for linen tube-and-yoke corselets (someone has, at last - I was beginning to fear that I would have to), but as Geala/Wolfgang points out this is, if anything, as thin as, or thinner than that for leather .Taking Magnus three disciplines; in archaeology, there is no evidence for either material- no tube-and yoke corselets survive (two tiny fragments of linen that would fit into a matchbox from Mycenean civilisations,that can't be recognised as anything, let alone armour,from around a thousand years before, doesn't count for anything !)Similarly, Homer and his 'linothorax' isn't anywhere near contemporary either - and he was talking about what for him/her/them was "ancient history" anyway. Same for Alcaeus (probably)
Sophocles fragment is classical, but again he is talking about Homeric/heroic times - I notice no-one is arguing that this fragment is evidence for chariot use in classical Athenian warfare. The Art evidence is inconclusive - clearly corselets are often painted, others are white (natural linen isn't) and some are pink/flesh-coloured/buff/brownish ( sorry, Magnus, brown [in a general sense] IS the colour of some armour, at least.)
That brings us back to contemporary literature, from which we learn that 'spolas/spolades' is what Hoplites wear, that it is body armour, and that it is made of leather ( and no similar statements for Hoplites and linen). We also learn that 'thorakes linoi' may be of Egyptian origin, were adopted by Persians, and that although Asiatics are described wearing them, Greeks NEVER are, with the exception of Plutarch's description of Alexander wearing a quilted linen one - and that is a captured Persian one !
No actual contemporary evidence for Greek Hoplites wearing linen armour at all then.
The best evidence for linen is what we might infer - through use of greek mercenaries in Egypt by it's last native rulers, Greeks will have seen/known of Egytian cuirasses. In greek art (but not Persian )we see Persians wearing identical tube-and-yoke corselets, some apparently quilted, to Hoplites -but had the artists seen Persian armour, or were they drawing/painting what they knew, and "quilting" it because they were told that Persian armour was so? We know greek artists got things they were unfamiliar with wrong - see, for example their inaccurate depiction of Scythians.
All in all, the overall evidence, meagre as it is, favours leather as much as linen, and the contemporary literature favours leather.
That is about as much as can be said at this point in time.
As to the Sarmatian coat on TC, yes, the same problem applies as to all artistic depictions - you can't really tell what it is made of ( but you most certainly couldn't plausibly put forward a dozen reconstructions !)When you take all the factors into account (shape, fastenings, likely materials available etc ) leather is by far the best bet.
Where does the idea that the shoulder pieces on tube-and -yoke corselets is "springy" come from ? They might be, but the depictions of Patroclus on the Sosias painter's cup and the Douris cup of Hoplites dressing ( the latter simplified, and incorrectly dated, on p.39 of Connolly, "Greek Armies" and also "Greece and Rome at war" ) could just as easily be simply 'thrown back' - if they were a 'soft' material and relatively thick they would stand up as shown. What do re-enactors who have made these corselets (using leather, line, or composite)find ?
I suspect that the whole idea of 'glued layers of linen' goes no further than Connolly's hypothesis.
To Magnus ; I couldn't agree more with Christian ! If you are going to put forward a premise, then support it ! I have, listing my sources. You put forward the premise "Leather Sucks!" - well, where's your evidence? eh?there is anecdotal evidence elsewhere on this forum that leather resists cuts/thrusts very well, and that glued linen does not. In any event, the viability of different materials is perhaps best left to Giannis thread already referred to.
To Matthew Amt , greetings and salutations!! Your sites on Roman and Hoplite reconstructions are absolute "goldmines" of information, and models of their kind.
Let us agree that Magnus is correct to say that a "best guess" ( and let's face it, given the paucity of information, that's what we are debating here ) should be based on all the information available, and preferably evidence from more than one discipline. You have put forward a summary of evidence for linen tube-and-yoke corselets (someone has, at last - I was beginning to fear that I would have to), but as Geala/Wolfgang points out this is, if anything, as thin as, or thinner than that for leather .Taking Magnus three disciplines; in archaeology, there is no evidence for either material- no tube-and yoke corselets survive (two tiny fragments of linen that would fit into a matchbox from Mycenean civilisations,that can't be recognised as anything, let alone armour,from around a thousand years before, doesn't count for anything !)Similarly, Homer and his 'linothorax' isn't anywhere near contemporary either - and he was talking about what for him/her/them was "ancient history" anyway. Same for Alcaeus (probably)
Sophocles fragment is classical, but again he is talking about Homeric/heroic times - I notice no-one is arguing that this fragment is evidence for chariot use in classical Athenian warfare. The Art evidence is inconclusive - clearly corselets are often painted, others are white (natural linen isn't) and some are pink/flesh-coloured/buff/brownish ( sorry, Magnus, brown [in a general sense] IS the colour of some armour, at least.)
That brings us back to contemporary literature, from which we learn that 'spolas/spolades' is what Hoplites wear, that it is body armour, and that it is made of leather ( and no similar statements for Hoplites and linen). We also learn that 'thorakes linoi' may be of Egyptian origin, were adopted by Persians, and that although Asiatics are described wearing them, Greeks NEVER are, with the exception of Plutarch's description of Alexander wearing a quilted linen one - and that is a captured Persian one !
No actual contemporary evidence for Greek Hoplites wearing linen armour at all then.
The best evidence for linen is what we might infer - through use of greek mercenaries in Egypt by it's last native rulers, Greeks will have seen/known of Egytian cuirasses. In greek art (but not Persian )we see Persians wearing identical tube-and-yoke corselets, some apparently quilted, to Hoplites -but had the artists seen Persian armour, or were they drawing/painting what they knew, and "quilting" it because they were told that Persian armour was so? We know greek artists got things they were unfamiliar with wrong - see, for example their inaccurate depiction of Scythians.
All in all, the overall evidence, meagre as it is, favours leather as much as linen, and the contemporary literature favours leather.
That is about as much as can be said at this point in time.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
