flying 262s again...

[Robert Vermaat]

Shut up Jasper - why discuss tanks when you have a thesis to finish?? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[Praefectusclassis]

Thanks for conceding defeat. :twisted:

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

I think Panther was a very good tank, but probably better was russian T34 with the 85 gun. Little, fast, maneovrable, etc. I remember have read about one of that knocking out 3 Konigstiger...

[tlclark]

"How did we ever beat you guys?"

Faster, more manoeuvrable, less needy, more adaptable, and greater in numbers; the Sherman.

Yeah, we hashed that out over here:

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... c&start=40

Paul Allen's comments are dead on I might add. One might also add that expendability of crews and materials was a factor as well. We had more red-shirted ensigns - to use the star trek vernacular. That's a pretty awful calculus though. Ain't war grand? :roll:

Update:

I do have to add though, Rommel was living on biscuits and what fuel he could steal from the Allies and kicking booty all up and down N. Africa. Initially Monty was very casualty averse under the erroneous assumption that he had to preserve his superior force numbers instead of burning them. Monty was no coward, but the practical effect of his strategy was the same as strategic timidity. He avoided the hard fights and Rommel figured out he could play him, bully him, keep operational despite being outnumbered and shut off from supplies. Now that's versatility.

In the end Monty figured out what we all figure out in time. Troops are there to get killed. He pressed his advantage, and won. It was all over for the Germans from that point on.

That war was all about the numbers after that.

I repeat: Ain't war grand? :roll:

[aitor iriarte]

Who was the U.S.A. military who said something like:
'Well, it takes us five Shermans to knock-out a Tiger, but we can afford for that and Germans cannot!'? 8)

Aitor

[Tib. Gabinius]

And remember, that we produced Pzkmpfw III and IV for a long time and blocked so capacities for other, better tanks...

[Narukami]

Who was the U.S.A. military who said something like:
'Well, it takes us five Shermans to knock-out a Tiger, but we can afford for that and Germans cannot!'? 8)

Aitor

I have read that too, but for the life of me I can not now find the exact reference source.

However...

In the book Patton's Tank Drive D-Day To Victory (Michael Green, c1995 Motorbooks, ISBN: 0-7603-0163-8 ) there are numerous quotes from after action reports comparing the Sherman (and other US military vehicles) to the tanks fielded by the Germans.

Sherman Tank Commander Frederick Wilson, "I have been taught that our tanks have much more maneuverability than the German tanks. It has been proven to me just a few days ago that it isn't so. The German Mark V (Panther) which is much heavier than our Mr (Sherman) beats ours around a large sized field; it makes sharp swerves or reverses of direction in a shorter space than ours can possibly do. German tanks have wider tracks and do not become bogged down as easily as ours do in muddy terrain." page93.

Corporal Arthur Deludea, " I have seen enemy heavy tanks hit as high as fifteen times without phasing them. I am not going to try to compare the German tank with our Sherman mounted 75mm gun. They are just all around better weapons of war." page86

This book is full of such comments.

Of course the Panther design is a direct descendant of the T34 and owes much to the great Russian tank. In fact the German tank corps wanted an exact copy of the T34 (with better German optics) that could be produced quickly, at low cost, and in numbers equal to Soviet production. What they got was the Panther, a superior weapon that was expensive in both time and money to make and to maintain in the field.

Have to run off to an appointment, but I will keep looking for that reference.

Narukami

[aitor iriarte]

Many thanks, David!

Aitor

[Matt Lukes]

Often enemy descriptions of actions that give the best information about the capabilities of adversaries' weapons- in Germany's Panther Tank by Tom Jentz, there's a short section at the end with quotes from US tankers who came up against the Panther:

"Capt. Henry W. Johnson, Co 'F' 66th Armd Regt: 'The wider tracks of the Mark V and Mark VI enables it to move much better cross-country and in muddy or snow-covered terrrain, than do the narrow tracks of the Sherman tank. The field expedient of duck bills added to the Sherman tread, aids but does not effect the advantage of the German Mark V and Mark VI tanks have. It is my opinion that the Mark V and Mark VI enemy tank is far superior in maneuverability to our own Sherman tanks.' 'The higher muzzle velocity of the German tanks enable them to far outrange our Sherman tanks. I have seen them knock out our tanks at ranges up to 1000 yards and know of no incident where a Sherman tank has knocked out a Mark V or Mark VI tank at more than 300 yards. Further it is my opinion that the vast majority of Mark V and Mark VI tanks knocked out have been destroyed by air support, abandoned, or as a direct result of air attack [although the efficacy of Allied air attacks on tanks was in truth negligible- Matt]. On the other hand, 85% of the tanks we have lost have been due to enemy self-propelled guns, tanks and AT guns.' 'In general, it is my opinion that our Sherman tanks rank clumsily with the German Mark III and Mark IV tanks, and their Mark V and Mark VI are in a class by themselves, having a better silhouette, better armor, better flotation, and maneuverability, far better guns with much better sight reticles, and superior ammunition."

Sgt. Chester J. Marczak: 'The German's high-velocity guns and souped-up ammunition can penetrate our thickest armor. At a range where it would be suicide for us to shoot, they shoot. What we need is more armor, higher velocity, not necessarily a bigger gun, souped-up ammunition, and a means whereby we can maneuver faster, making sharper turns. I've seen many times when the air force was called out to wipe out scattered tanks rather than letting our tanks get slaughtered. All of us know the German tanks are far superior to anything we have in combat. They're are able to maneuver on a space the length of their tank. How can we outflank them when all they have to do si pivot and keep their frontal armor toward us? Their frontal armor is practically invulnerable to our 75's, except at an exceptionally close range- and they never let us get that close. We've got a good tank- for parades and training purposes (my italics)- but for combat they are just potential coffins. I know! I've left them burning after the first few rounds of German shells penetrated our thickest armor."

"Tec 5 Howard A. Wood, Gunner: 'I am a gunner on a Sherman tank, mounting a 75mm. I fired two AP's at two Mark V's and both were hits, both rounds bounced off, and the range was less than 400 yards."

"Tec 4 M. L. Hall: 'In the battle for Rumain, Belgium, I saw the Company Commander's tank shooting at a Mark V at a range of about 600 yards. Every round bounced off the front. The same morning we had tanks knocked out with hits through our thickest armor."

"Sgt. Leo Anderson: '... Many times I've seen our tanks engage German tanks in tank duels. Their tanks have the ups on us. Their guns and armor are far better than ours. On this particular occasion... we located two Mark V tanks at about 2800 to 3000 yards away. At once our Tank Destroyers and tanks opened fire on them. The gunners had the eye to hit but our guns didn't have the power to knock them out. I saw our Tank Destroyers and self propelled get several direct hits on the Kraut tanks but the projectils just bounced off the Jerries. The Jerries' guns didn't fail, they knocked out three of our Tank Destroyers and one Sherman tank at 2800 to 3000 yards. If our tanks had been as good as the German tanks they would never have scored a hit."

"Sgt. Francis W. Baker, Tank Commander: 'On the morning of November 20, 1944, I was tank commander of a Sherman medium tank mounting a 76mm gun. ... Ordering my gunner to fire at the closest tank (Panther- Matt), which was approximagely 800 yards away, he placed one right in the side which was completely visible to me. To my amazement and disgust I watched the shell bounce off the side. My gunner fired at least six more rounds at that vehicle hitting it from turret to the track. This German tank knowing that I possibly would be supported by a tank destroyer, started to pull away. I was completely surprised to see it moving after receiving seven hits from my gun..."

"Sgt. Frederick H. Wilson, Tank Commander: 'I have been taught that our tanks have much more maneuverability than the German tanks. It has been proven to me just a few days ago that this isn't so. The German Mark V, which is much heavier than our M4, beat ours around a large sized field. Made a sharp swerve or reverse of direction in a shorter space than ours can possibly do. German tanks have much wider tracks and do not become bogged down as easily as ours do in muddy terrain."

Pretty telling I'd say...

[Matt Lukes]

PBS is showing a series called Warplane right now and the episode just shown deals partly with the advent of the jet engine and they show a whole bunch of footage of the replica Me262s- gorgeous machines! Gotta get me $5 million...

[tlclark]

No one has posted some of the excellent American aircraft.

Now I love the P-51D (vastly underpowerd until the rolls-royce upgrade) The p-38 lightning is a fav at airshows, fast as hell but I've heard unstable.

My favorites though are the workhorses, the B-25's and B-24 liberators. The Doolittle raid was just amazing and impossible without them.

Flashy is cool but there's just something about a plane that could go that far.

For that matter, the B-29 superfortress was a marvel too.

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

OH, LUCKY AMERICANS!!! THE DREAM CAN BE TRUE FOR YOU!!!

http://www.warbirdrecovery.com/wb_newsDetails.php?ID=22

Hey, you could be there..., uhmm, I bet that those B24 guys are not so serene... :wink:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attach ... tid=139796

SNIFF FOR EUROPEANS...

Valete,

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

this one apparently is rotting away in Colombia...

also in Latin America there are still hidreds of Dakota, B-25 and other WWII vintage relic wrecks deteriorating away...

which makes me feel very very sad!

http://img256.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0090gy0.jpg

M.VIB.M.

[TraderTrey9785]

I'd definitely love to fly in a 262, but my only experience that comes close was a free ride in a T-33 Shooting Star when I was 15.

Check out this site for an accurate picture [url:112a8xnw]http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.war-eagles-air-museum.com/exhibits/t-33_1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.war-eagles-air-museum.com/t-33_1.html&h=273&w=500&sz=14&hl=en&start=13&tbnid=XW75GsBE02m0WM:&tbnh=71&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3DT-33%2BShooting%2BStar%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D[/url]

If anyone is interested, there is a good book by Colonel Donald S. Lopez USAF retired, called Fighter Pilot's Heaven: Flight Testing the Early Jets. Colonel Lopez is the director of the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum and a really nice guy. He had some great experiences testing early jets in 1944-45 -- a must read for anyone interested in early jet warfare and tactics.

[Matt Lukes]

My favorites though are the workhorses, the B-25's and B-24 liberators.

I've always loved the joke that 'the B24 is the box a B17 came in' :lol:

And you know that the P-51 was designed by a German- Edgar Schmued :wink: