Kalkriese is not the Varus battle site ?

[S SEVERUS]

To bad that till now nobody found the place op Mons Graupius.

But what about Abrittus? It was also the place of a heavy roman defeat. Is that place found?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Abrittus?

I am looking hard for Mons Graupius.....honest..... :wink:
Just have to find the highest denstity of Caledonii ghosts in the area..... hock:

[S SEVERUS]

The Battle of Abritus[1] (modern Razgrad, in the Bulgarian part of Dobruja), also known as the Battle of Forum Terebronii[2], occurred in the Roman province of Moesia Inferior probably in June, 251, between the Roman Empire and a federation of "Scythian" tribesmen under the Goth King Cniva. The Romans were soundly defeated, and Roman Emperors Decius and his son Herennius Etruscus were both killed during battle. They became the first Roman emperors killed in a battle with a foreign enemy.

The battle typically marks the starting point of a period of increased military and political instability in the Roman Empire, although the symptoms of the crisis had already appeared in the preceding decade.

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

Did they find coins in Kalkriese as to be able to date the finds?

Coins = found, marked with the Varus id

AFAIK, the numismaticians say that from their POV its not possible to distinct the Varian battlefield from a later one of Germanicus time. Its already mentioned here in the beginning of this thread in a comment on a conference about the Kalkriese-site. Bold=EDIT

... there is even some dispute on the meaning of the countermark VAR=Varus and C.VAL=C. Numonius Vala (a legate), but I don't know how substantiated that critic is.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Ahh ok. Vauge recollection, the later period is not my main area of interest, I find it all too depressing...... :roll: Thanks for the info!

It would be nice to be allowed to do a trawl of the area I have in mind with a metal detector, just to see if any evidence could be found. (Mons Graupius, that is)
Sorry, going OT here. :oops:

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

I find it all too depressing.....

lol lol: more depressing than Varus??? hock:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

:lol:
Varus, well there was still hope, despite his floundering about in the woods......and Octavian's vacillations were not necessarily the path that had to be followed....but by this time...the rot had set in I think, beyond repair...... :roll:

[Nerva]

For Jupiters sake Byron, how many times must I tell you that those woolly things are sheep, not Caladonian ghosts :roll: Remember, you cant have s*x with a ghost :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Magnus]

You can, it's just really lonely.

[Marcus Cassius LegioXIV]

Ahh ok. Vauge recollection, the later period is not my main area of interest, I find it all too depressing...... :roll: Thanks for the info!

It would be nice to be allowed to do a trawl of the area I have in mind with a metal detector, just to see if any evidence could be found. (Mons Graupius, that is)
Sorry, going OT here. :oops:

Would be nice, the only problem is that part of northern Scotland, at least near Bennachie in Aberdeenshire, maybe even Pirthshire, has very acidic soil, maybe items that are a couple hundred years old might last, but alas, nothing as old as Roman!

[garrelt]

Yes, I read somewhere, that Germans weapons were of so poor quality (the material, NOT the craftmanship) that sometimes during battle they did bend. But I may be wrong on this.

Correct this has beeing written.
If you have to mass produce quickly, quality mostly goes down.
Even now this still applies.

My "problem" is here further that the civilian stuff has gotten so far, provided Kalkriese is one of the endpoints of the Varian battle.

Can you tell the difference between a civilian or a military situla, disregarding the context in which it was found?

Someone mentions Alesia... Were there many weapon finds there such as weapons or was it just arrow head, sling stone, etc... It was a siege so everything must have been much concentrated there.

Yes: umbones, swords, daggers, etc.
There is an article about these finds in JRME, Volume 8 (1997)

S. Sievers
Alesia und Osuna: Bemerkungen zur Normierung der spätrepublikanischen Bewaffnung und Ausrüstung
271-276

V. Brouquier-Reddé
L’équipement militaire d’Alésia d’après les nouvelles recherches (prospections et fouilles)
277-88

Sometimes you can find me in trench working with shovel, trawl, and brushes excavating remains of our local history.
But that is an other topic.

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

Can you tell the difference between a civilian or a military situla, disregarding the context in which it was found?

no, can't do that, alas. I'm not qualified even to say so. but my understanding is that the misproportion in civ./mil. equipment has been widely accepted. correct me if I'm wrong on this. :o and what would it change if all finds in question were undoubtedly military? nobody questions the presence of military. the point is that the material and equipment mainly being found is not of that kind that would soldiers take care of to the last, I think. Here my opinion is, that lack of weapons is more likely a sign of a Roman force prevailing in Kalkriese. this mustnt mean, they weren't defeat elsewhere.

May be anyone can help on this and has a list on the number of finds and proportions of Kalkriese finds? On the site of the uni osnabrueck they speak only generally of thousands finds whereof 4000 militaria, 1600 coins.

[garrelt]

Can you tell the difference between a civilian or a military situla, disregarding the context in which it was found?

no, can't do that, alas. I'm not qualified even to say so.

Carsten
This was a bit of a trick question, even my colleagues (archaeologists) with years of experience wouldn't be able to see the difference without knowing the context.

On the site of the uni osnabrueck they speak only generally of thousands finds whereof 4000 militaria, 1600 coins.

Do you know if there is a publication series of these finds like the Augst series ?

[Marcus Cassius LegioXIV]

Can you tell the difference between a civilian or a military situla, disregarding the context in which it was found?

no, can't do that, alas. I'm not qualified even to say so. but my understanding is that the misproportion in civ./mil. equipment has been widely accepted. correct me if I'm wrong on this. :o and what would it change if all finds in question were undoubtedly military? nobody questions the presence of military. the point is that the material and equipment mainly being found is not of that kind that would soldiers take care of to the last, I think. Here my opinion is, that lack of weapons is more likely a sign of a Roman force prevailing in Kalkriese. this mustnt mean, they weren't defeat elsewhere.

May be anyone can help on this and has a list on the number of finds and proportions of Kalkriese finds? On the site of the uni osnabrueck they speak only generally of thousands finds whereof 4000 militaria, 1600 coins.

Here's an idea, could this had been a break out area? Such as maybe some units and civilians broke through this area, but seeing they had to go faster left these items where they were? Because, I mean would you want to get rid of your whole life without trying to keep hold of some items?

Course, perhaps the civilians somehow got this far with these items and were just plain cut down at this point? Who knows! Just putting some ideas out there.

[garrelt]

Here's an idea, could this had been a break out area?

Or could it be a POW retaining place, combined with a field hospital?