Late Roman tunic (Clavi)

[Crispvs]

Sorry Robert,

I haven't actually finished the embroidery yet. Arthes took some photos of my late Roman tunic when the RMRS was in Scarborough a month or two ago, so I will ask her if she could send me a suitable photo to post up here to show the current state of progress (and a different type of sleeve to the type everyone else uses).

Regarding the picture of the shield, I did take a picture specially for you a couple of years ago but unfortunately I do not have a digital camera so it is a normal photographic print. I could try to get someone to scan it for me so I can send you an electronic copy.

Crispvs

[Salvianus]

For Science and Experimental Archaeology! Huzzah! :wink:

Can we have that in Latin? It'll be the battle cry at Archeon next year!

Um, how about
'Pro Scientia et Historia Periclitationis'?

I need a Latin course for Christmas...

[Robert Vermaat]

Arthes took some photos of my late Roman tunic when the RMRS was in Scarborough a month or two ago, so I will ask her if she could send me a suitable photo
Regarding the picture of the shield, I could try to get someone to scan it for me so I can send you an electronic copy.

Hoorah!!

[pvblivs cordvs]

Hi all,
Robert, keep me posted on when you want to do this little Antwerpen fieldtrip. The wife and I will try and join you.
We"ve got a pretty good digital camera.
What do you prefer on your memory card? Mustard or Ketchup.
Cheers,
Wim / Cordvs

[Peroni]

What do you prefer on your memory card? Mustard or Ketchup.

Now here's me thinking that the Dutch preferred mayonaise and chocolate sprinkles! :?

[LVCIVS VVLPES]

Hi,
There was an exhibition on Coptic textiles from flemish private collections in 1993 in the Velzeke Museum, 162 pieces, and the good news is that the catalogue ( Dutch and English ) is still available

for info

pamzovAToost-vlaanderenDOTbe


Luc

[moderator: Hi Luc, I altered that email address so that spambots won't find it so easily]

[Crispvs]

Robert,

Arthes has very kindly sent me some of the photos she took in Scarborough and so I can finally show you what my tunic looks like. Bear in mind that it is far from finished. Vine leaves and tendrils have still to be added to the clavi, the bands at the cuffs have still to be done and the tabuli still require their central motifs. The tunic is based on two tunics from Egypt which were auctioned at Christie's a few years ago.





Crispvs

[Graham Sumner]

Hello Paul

Very interesting to see how the late tunic can still appear baggy, which certainly matches the descriptions I have read. Perhaps when you add the designs near the cuffs you could close the cuffs themselves around the wrist even tighter if possible.


Graham.

[Peroni]

Perhaps when you add the designs near the cuffs you could close the cuffs themselves around the wrist even tighter if possible.

Blimey! aren't they tight enough already? Looking at the picture of Crispvs wearing the tunic, it looks pretty constricting as is!

[Graham Sumner]

Blimey! aren't they tight enough already?

No tighter than a modern sweatshirt perhaps or those worn by orthodox priests, whose garments are actually decended from late Roman ones.

Late Roman art and sculpture depicting Roman soldiers consistently show narrow tight fitting cuffs. And by tight that means there is no slack hanging down at all. I have also seen examples of original tunics which also clearly demonstrate this feature.

It is true that there are long sleeved tunics with wider openings but on the rare occaions you see soldiers wearing them, firstly they are much shorter in the sleeve, therefore like the old fashoined tunics and secondly they probably have another long sleeved tunic with tight fitting cuffs worn underneath as depicted in the final plate in Roman Military Clothing 3 for example.

By the way Adrian are you standing on the Lunt gate tower in your Avatar?

[Peroni]

Thanks Graham.

I guess they would at least be wide enough to let the hand pass through, which would mean that there would necessarily be a bit of sleeve which was slightly baggy on the (narrower) wrist

Late Roman art and sculpture depicting Roman soldiers consistently show narrow tight fitting cuffs. And by tight that means there is no slack hanging down at all

Trajan's column shows auxiliaries wearing what appear to be lycra trousers too, but there's no way you'd get them that tight and still move!
:wink:

Yes, that's the Lunt gate!

[Graham Sumner]

Hello Adrian

No, I think the fabric must be flexible enough to allow the hand to pass through and then close behind. I have seen the sleeve of a modern Orthodox priest whose cuffs were exactly like those shown in Roman art so it can be done and presumably without cutting off the circulation!
I have suggested elsewhere that there may be a practical and logical reason for the tight fitting sleeves in a military context, that is that a narrow tight fitting sleeve would not get snagged on anything.

Graham.

Trajan's column shows auxiliaries wearing what appear to be lycra trousers too, but there's no way you'd get them that tight and still move!

In that instance I am reminded of Lord Cardigans 11th Hussars (of Light Brigade fame) whose tight cherry coloured breeches earned them the nickname the 'cherubims' or as they liked to call themselves the 'cherrybums'! The Times newspaper commented that their cherry coloured pants were as 'utterly unfit for war service as the garb of the female hussars in the ballet Gustavus, which they so nearly resemble'.

[Crispvs]

Graham,

"Perhaps when you add the designs near the cuffs you could close the cuffs themselves around the wrist even tighter if possible."

As Peronis says, the sleeves are pretty much skin tight as it is and it can be quite tricky to get my hand through. Certainly there is an art to putting my arm into the sleeve at the right angle so as to stop the tunic becoming uncomfortably twisted at the shoulder. Once my arm is in the sleeve it is virtually impossible to rotate the sleeve around it (and I am closer in stature to a pipe cleaner man than Arnold Swartzeneger). I have to pull my arm out and try again to get the angle right. As to closing up the cuffs, I cannot think of any way to do this other than a lace which could be tightened slightly once the tunic was on. If the garment was knitted this would not be a problem, but the tunics I copied this one from were definitely woven. Not being a weaver I do not know if it is possible to weave a fabric which can be repeatedly stretched without tearing or becoming permanently distorted.

I am not sure how a larger or more muscular man would be able to wear this tunic. The dimensions of the tunic however, including those of the sleeves, are copied from those of the actual garments, which I calculated from the height and width measurements given by Christie's in their catalogue. I did contemplate enlarging the sleeves when I saw what size they would turn out to be but in the end I made it according to the originals to find out whether I could make it work.

As a perhaps relevant aside, once the tunic has been put on, the sleeves are remarkably comfortable, despite being skin tight and fairly inflexible.

Crispvs

[Robert Vermaat]

Very interesting to see how the late tunic can still appear baggy, which certainly matches the descriptions I have read. Perhaps when you add the designs near the cuffs you could close the cuffs themselves around the wrist even tighter if possible.

I wear a long-sleeved linen tunic under my 'good' tunic, so my sleeves can't posssible be so tight that the hand 'just' fits through them. Linen is not that flexible that it can 'close' behind the hand!

[Crispvs]

Good point Robert. I haven't tried wearing mine with an undertunic with sleeves. I always use one of my regular sleeveless linen undertunics. Perhaps I should make up a sleeved undertunic to see how that would change things in relation to being able to fit my arms into the sleeves, although I suspect that the linen sleeves would be forced back up the arm by the tight woollen sleeves of the tunic.

Crispvs