Crossed belts with wide beltplates

[Marcus Mummius]

Salve,

I was wondering wheter it would be correct to wear two crossed belts (one for the pugio and one for the gladius) with wide beltplates (about 5cm)? When I see the two belt system reconstructed it's always done with two narrow belts and never with two wide belts.

I know in Augustan times narrow belts and beltplates were most common but what in the last quarter of the 1st century AD?

We know from grave stèles that the two belt system was still used in this period and most beltplates from this period are wide. Hence my question

What do you all think?

Vale,

[Tib. Gabinius]

Salve Jef,
can you tell me some of these gravestones of the last quarter of 1st century AD?

[Marcus Mummius]

Salve Jef,
can you tell me some of these gravestones of the last quarter of 1st century AD?

While I was typing my question I knew someone would ask this :lol:

Actualy I have to look up the exact dates but I'm fairly sure I've seen some dated to the second half of the first century AD, at least... Not sure about the last quarter though...

I've seen grave steles with wide crossed belts on them though. So they probably excisted. The question is when did this suspension system dissappear? Some time ago someone on RAT stated that there are very little soldiers depicted on funerary reliefs with a baldric. And those that are depicted this way are always officers. Perhaps some Greek influence?

What is the evidence for the use of the shoulder baldric in the first century AD?

I wear my gladius on a baldric too, as does everyone I know who reenacts this period but I think it's very interesting to research what made us do this...

Vale,

[M. Demetrius]

I think it's very interesting to research what made us do this...

Well, it is easier and cheaper to make a baldric than a belt full of plates, for one thing, so that may have influenced some decisions.

[Primvs Pavlvs]

It seems to me that the double belts seem to go out of fashion when segmentata became more of the norm. If you have ever tried wearing two belts with a seg you will know what I am talking about.

[Marcus Mummius]

Well, it is easier and cheaper to make a baldric than a belt full of plates, for one thing, so that may have influenced some decisions.

That's indeed one of the main reasons I think, but it isn't a good reason when striving for the best possible authenticity. Plain pugio sheaths were very rare in the first century AD but with reenactors they are very common.... :?

It seems to me that the double belts seem to go out of fashion when segmentata became more of the norm.

But did the segmentata ever become the norm? Would the hamata wearing soldiers in the second half of the first century AD still have been wearing the two waistbelts? And what about soldiers wearing the seg in the first half of the first century AD? Would they have already worn a baldric?

If you have ever tried wearing two belts with a seg you will know what I am talking about.

I never tried it. I can imagine that the problem of the belt sliding down would be twice as annoying But I must say that with my current segmentata (made to size) I have less of a problem with the balteus sliding down than I have with my hamata. When I wore a seg that was too big the belt kept sliding down and tying it in place with leather tongs on the girdle plates was the only thing to avoid this.

Has anyone else tried wearing two belts with a seg? Did you expierience a lot of problems?

[Neuraleanus]

I was wondering wheter it would be correct to wear two crossed belts (one for the pugio and one for the gladius) with wide beltplates (about 5cm)? When I see the two belt system reconstructed it's always done with two narrow belts and never with two wide belts.

I know in Augustan times narrow belts and beltplates were most common but what in the last quarter of the 1st century AD?

His were 13/4 inches (about 4.5 cm) wide though:

[url:386iswu2]http://69.245.185.34/roman/Ottawa2005/artifacts/HerculaeumBelt.jpg[/url]

[Marcus Mummius]

So the Herculaneum soldier wore crossed belts. I didn't realise that . So it's certain they were still in use (with wide beltplates) in 79AD. I wonder if he wore them over a seg or over a hamata...

[Matthew Amt]

Was the Herculaneum soldier actually wearing both belts when found, though? I thought I remembered that one belt was wrapped around his scabbard.

Matthew

[Marcus Mummius]

Was the Herculaneum soldier actually wearing both belts when found, though? I thought I remembered that one belt was wrapped around his scabbard.

Matthew

How many frogs were found with these belts? If both belts were frogs I strongly suspect them to be waistbelts because suspending a sword by frogs on a baldric doens't seem very handy to me

[M. Demetrius]

I wonder if he wore them over a seg or over a hamata...

The picture I saw of the skeletal remains being excavated didn't seem to indicate any armor at all, so it would be anybody's guess what he would have worn in battle. Some say that soldiers didn't wear armor in a home city unless they were going into battle to quell a rebellion or something.

Against a basically unarmed population, a trained soldier with a gladius would be quite formidable enough, I'd reckon. I don't know for certain, but that makes sense to me.

[Tib. Gabinius]

I haven't any references seen about the Herculenum soldier right now i must confess, but there are some questions have to be asked before.

1. Soldier in basic italy in 79 AD? What kind of soldier was he? Belonged to a legion, cohors or cohors urbana, praetoriana....?
2. Which age was he? Were he a tiro, just got his equipment, were a veteran with his old stuff?
3. The question already mentioned, did he worn the 2nd belt at his body or transported it?

As already mentioned i also find it very difficult to wear a cingulum at my segmentata, already one is heave enough to run downwards on my oiled armour often enough, so i' ve to use some tricks for heavy duty in it.

A balteus is quite more usefull, also if you wear no armour, you can hang the balteus itself downwards and the one cingulum will wear both just very easy.
But we dont have any source when exactly the cingula style stopped and the balteus cingulum mix started (which didnt had to be the same time, just to remember it).
Still now i was thinking about all reliefs last quarter 1st century showed just one cingulum, but i'm looking forward to Jefs references

But btw i must come again back to the strange use of the words cingulum and balteus i discussed already with Tarbicus (perhaps he knows still where). Josephus described how some jews cut the baltei of some soldiers while they weren't at watch and how the fooled them in calling them to get their swords out of the sheets, which naturally wasnt possible, cause they lost them that way.
In fact it would be a much harder thing to cut a cingulum (metallparts, direct contact to the hip) than a balteus (you call it a baldric).

[Tarbicus]

But btw i must come again back to the strange use of the words cingulum and balteus i discussed already with Tarbicus (perhaps he knows still where).

I don't travel back to my books until later today, so I'll see if I can find it then. But, you might want to check out RME2 in the meantime. I'm also wondering what the primary source calls them in latin, when describing the soldiers on leave in Rome who had their belts cut by local youths. The soldiers went on the rampage and killed everyone in sight, including one soldier's father.

I can't seem to find the discussion using a search.

[Tarbicus]

Aren't these a typical wider belt shown as a double set?
[url:2ize7q3o]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_imagebase/task,view/cid,15/Itemid,94/[/url]

Annaius Daverzus (as usual, he gets around).

Early 1st C, but ....

Firmus is another one:
[url:2ize7q3o]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_imagebase/task,view/cid,142/Itemid,94/[/url]

[Tib. Gabinius]

I ment our short disuccion in this forum Jim.