legionary breeches

[aitor iriarte]

Just to make clear that those long trousers with integral feet are not earlier than Third century AD, at least inside Roman Empire (They were posssibly used by Germannic people since an earlier date). Sorry Early Imperial folks! :wink:
The two patterns posted by Christian are from the two trousers recovered from Thorsberg. The Damendorf trousers (the ones I used for my replica)

are very similar we can say that the three garments are variants upon the same theme.

Aitor

[James B.]

This site has pictures of the Thorsberg and the Damendorf trousers:

http://globetrotter-games.com/index.htm ... enmark.htm

If you google image search you will come up with patterns. I just made a full pair of Thorsberg trousers for my auxiliary impression, I plan to make a pair of braccae with the same pattern.

[Robert]

Thanks Aitor! Nothing for us poor Imperial slobs doing the first century That is the main drawback of the trousers so far, lack of proof as to how things were two centuries before Thorsberg in an auxilia context. But then again, a whole lot better then freezing your cohones off :lol:

[Mark Headlee]

That is why I feel this may be "as close" to a pattern until something else is found...it would be better to use this pattern than to use a modern garment, modify it to look period, and then make the trousers.

That is for me part of the fun of Roman period. So much as not survived that research is mandatory to ensure your kit is put together correctly. Not unlike other periods, there is so much yet to be discovered...

I looked at the web site listed above and was amazed by the numerous finds at Thorsburg...being ignorant of the history of the site, could anyone fill me in on why these garments ended up there....

[Crispvs]

Hoke,

Just a small caveat here.

We do not actually know what Roman soldiers wore during the campaigns in Gaul and Britain in the first century BC and first century AD which I think you are refering to. It may reasonably be assumed that they wore what they would normally wear (which is unlikely to have included trousers of any sort) along with locally produced items they may have picked up along the way. What these locally produced items might have been we can only speculate and we should bear in mind that the items Romans might choose might not be the same as the items we might choose. Many, and possibly most, Roman citizens of that period apparently considered trousers to be effeminate, barbaric or both. Even in cold weather they may well have avoided trousers and stuck instead with the warm lower leg coverings which they were already familiar with.

If you are considering a legionary impression and are putting together cold weather kit (which I assume is why you are asking about femenalia/breeches) I would first make up socks and lower leg coverings. These could be of two forms, either leg bindings - long strips of material wound around the lower leg like the puttees worn by soldiers in the First World War, or leg wrappings - rectangular pieces of cloth with ties attached which wrapped around the lower legs. Both these forms of clothing insulate the area of the leg most likely to be affected by cold conditions and certainly leg bindings were native to the Italian peninsular and therefore would have made immediate sense to Romans in cold weather. Wearing warm lower leg coverings largely negates any need for trousers, as I can attest to from my own experience. Some of the soldiers may have adopted trousers during certain campaigns but we can be certain that they would have been far from universal.

If you are not putting together cold weather kit I would not bother with femenalia if I were you. Also, be very wary of basing anything on an illustration in a book (or a photograph of a reconstuction for that matter). Many illustrators are not as well informed as we might like to think and will let their own preconceptions get the way of accuracy. Angus McBride (to give an example) has become this way in recent years. Also, if a picture is based on out of date research it may not have been painted in accordence with our current level of knowledge. Many of Ronald Embleton and Peter Connolley's paintings which were painted in the 1970s now suffer from this problem, although Connolley does keep up to date with research for his paintings. If you are planning on putting together clothing I would strongly recommend reading Graham Sumner's Osprey books on Roman military clothing, particularly volume 1. He has done a great deal of research and he has published recently.

I hope this helps a little.

Crispvs

[Tarbicus]

Wear femenalia as a legionary during most of the 1st C and before, then you're just a filthy, low-life, dirt-eating, unwashed, stinking barbarian.

Even worse if you wear braccae! Not even fit to lick my dog's...

[hoke]

crispvs,
thanks for your reply and the information.

your right i was basing the braccae on pictures and actual people wearing these short tight breeches, just below the knee.
i thought this was an acceptable garment based on historical fact.
honestly i kinda liked them.
i have seen legionarys wearing leggins though i thought them odd ,
anachronism that looked more in tune to the american frontier colonial times, not ancient rome.
i suppose lite woolen material best for the wraps?
i'm off to the libirary tomorrow for sure. thanks,
hoke,
secundus
lego VI F

[GaiusAquiliusBritannicus]

Ave!

Did anyone else notice the distinctly different pattern shown in the "foot" fabric of the drawing of the pants that was first posted?

Just curious if this implies that the "socks" were specifically made out of different fabric (for whatever reason).

Gratis.

Britannicus

[hoke]

tarbicus,
thanks for your motivating responce. reminiscent of r.lee ermy from mail call. :roll: :wink:
i'm off to the hall of knowledge to do some research.
btw when you mentioned 1st century, did you mean bc or ad?
thanks for you help.
vale.
secundus/hoke hinson

vi lego f

[Tarbicus]

tarbicus,
thanks for your motivating responce. reminiscent of r.lee ermy from mail call. :roll: :wink:

[url:2xw78tyu]http://www.legionsix.org/img33.gif[/url]
[url:2xw78tyu]http://www.legionsix.org/film_and_tv.htm[/url]
More feasible than you think :wink:

btw when you mentioned 1st century, did you mean bc or ad?

Both But, IF worn by legionaries in the Dacian campaigns (visible on Trajan's Column but not the Adamklissi Metopes IIRC), that might not preclude femenalia from the late 1st C AD.

[hoke]

yeah,
the VI lego Victrix did a couple sets with the ole' gunney. r.lee looked
pretty good once he was dressed out in mail. 8)

from your message i infer i could use femenalia for 79ad or later?

thanks,
hoke hinson
secundus
VI lego f

[James B.]

Tarbicus

Too bad you didn't kill Peter Woodward and his crew and bury them where no one could find them. That show helps spread so much BS about arms and armor, particularly medieval stuff, people are still using that show as proof of their uneducated ideas on the net. :roll:

[Crispvs]

Hoke,

To be honest we do not know when Roman legionaries began wearing femenalia but the earliest evidence we have is from the Adamklissi metopes dating to Trajan's Dacian campaigns. From then on they are fairly commonly seen in sculpture.

This means that they may have been wearing them before the Dacian wars but as we do not have any evidence for them doing so I would recommend avoiding them for anything earlier than the early second century AD. You won't be in danger of being inaccurate then.

As to leg bindings, I would recommend using wool, both because wool is warm and because it tends to grip well against other woollen surfaces, meaning each turn of the binding on your leg should grip the one below and help to hold it up. I just used strips I cut from an old woollen blanket for mine but if you are a keen weever or know someone who is, purpose woven leg bindings would be stronger and longer lasting. I would recommend making them three to four inches wide and at least ten feet long. You could also consider linen, which would stand up to abraision from undergrowth better but would have a poorer grip on itself and would not insulate as well as wool.

Crispvs

[hoke]

crispvs,
you have been most helpful,
and i bid thanks to all who have given me direction in my education. :wink:
cheers ,
hoke hinson
secundus,
VI Lego F

[aitor iriarte]

Todd,

All the parts belonging to the Thorsberg trousers are made from the same kind of fabric, i.e. woollen diamond twill.
It is just a matter of choice of the man who did the drawing to show only the diamond pattern on the sock :roll:
Never trust a drawing if you cannot check it against the reality or, at least, a good photo! :wink:

Aitor