4th century belt

[Publius Aelius Lucius]

www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-cingulum.html

Do somebody know the dimension of this late roman "propeller" type belt decoration :?:
And the period :?: Beginn 4th century :?:

On the Arch of Constantin you see soldiers with belts. these belts are not so broad (like in the second half of the 4th century :?: ) or is this artwork

Thanks for your help

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Martin,

My guess would be that the buckles were never that big, so the belt (judging from the stiffeners) would not exceed 3-4 cm.

[aitor iriarte]

That type of rectangular buckle seems to be associated with the Pannonian area. I plan to have one series of silver fittings of that kind made sometime in a future, based on the Berkasovo fittings...
I think that the propeller belts were in fashion during the central third of Fourth century.
I agree with Robert about the width of the propeller belts. Of course, there are later residual propellers much higher than that, but they don't belong to the kind of belt you're depicting or to its strict contemporaries.
Incidentally, one of the sailors on one of the repairs to the Piazza Armerina Great Hunt Mosaic is wearing a propeller belt, while on the original sections only straight, simple strip. stiffeners are depicted if any.
Maybe Constantinian in date... :? I cannot recall to have seen propellers on Constantine's Arch but I haven't excamined it in detail...

Aitor

[Publius Aelius Lucius]

so it could be that this buckle is just 3 cm wide and the
"propellerbeschlag" also :?: (how is the english word for propellerbeschlag ?)

I made a wax modell (free reconstruction :oops: ) with 5 cm "propeller" wide and the buckle inside is 3,7 cm

It´s better to remake it :?:
I know the answer is difficult without the real dimensions

[aitor iriarte]

Propellerbeschlag = Propeller fitting
5 cm is too high/wide. I can give you real dimensions, but not now.
One important thing is that the design of all the propellers in the belt should be the same. therefore, the rest of the propellers should be like the one included int he buckle...

Aitor

[Publius Aelius Lucius]

Propellerbeschlag = Propeller fitting

Thank you Aitor

5 cm is too high/wide.

So, I will start again with smaller high

Maybe Constantinian in date... I cannot recall to have seen propellers on Constantine's Arch but I haven't excamined it in detail...

But the propeller fittings ?:

In the book "Spätrömische Gardehelme" from Hans Klumbach, there are the Berkasovo, Intercisa, Deurne and other late Roman Helmet founds inside and also fittings . If I remember correctly.

[aitor iriarte]

Martin,
Good news for you (and sorry for the preceding post). A width of 5 cm is not only acceptable but also the norm for those kind of buckles!!

Here the Piazza Armerina mosaic:




Aitor

[Aurelianus]

I have some original Propeller fittings in my school-collection!
If it would useful I could take some photos and the measures!

I know that there are many different sizes! Some are quite little others are - if I remember right - about 7 cm (2 3/4 inch) long!!!

[Robert Vermaat]

Propellerbeschlag = Propeller fitting

Better: Propeller stiffener.

[Publius Aelius Lucius]

A width of 5 cm is not only acceptable but also the norm for those kind of buckles!!

You make me happy, Aitor D D

If it would useful I could take some photos and the measures!

Ja bitte und Danke im Voraus Patrik D D

Better: Propeller stiffener.

Thanks Robert (it is not so easy to wright english with my austrian school english and the dictionary)

[Robert Vermaat]

Better: Propeller stiffener.

Thanks Robert (it is not so easy to wright english with my austrian school english and the dictionary)

My pleasure. I'm still translating a German article about Late Roman buckles etc. into English - neither my own language! :roll:

[Arahne]

Maybe this could help
T. Schmidts, Ein spätantiker Gürtelbeschlag mit figurlicher Verzierung, Archeologisches Korespondenzblatt 32/3, 2002, 427-431.

[Publius Aelius Lucius]

Maybe this could help
T. Schmidts, Ein spätantiker Gürtelbeschlag mit figurlicher Verzierung, Archeologisches Korespondenzblatt 32/3, 2002, 427-431.

I hope I will find the book in the library of the Institut für Ur-und Frühgeschichte in Vienna! Thank your

I found a "Austrian" propeller stiffener

www.uibk.ac.at/klassische-archaeologie/ ... rDiss.html - 12k -

Gerald Grabherr
Michlhallberg
Die Ausgrabungen in der römischen Siedlung 1997-1999
und die Untersuchungen an der zugehörigen Straßentrasse
(Diss. Innsbruck 2001) 1


997-1999 the Institut of Classical Archaeology/University of Innsbruck excavated a Roman settlement in the locality of Michlhallberg, municipality Altaussee in the region Salzkammergut (Austria). The area is damaged by several landslips and therefore it was impossible to prove vestiges of buildings. The singular position of this settlement is substantiated in its central-alpine location and the abundant small finds. Up to now 658 coins, 73 brooches, pieces of military equipment and objects for everyday use were saved. Fine wares and glass vessels represent a minor part of the finds. The main part of pottery is formed by local coarsewares. Mining tools and the local salt deposits suggest the interpretation as a salt-mine or a saltern. The small finds indicate the establishment of the roman settlement in the late of 2nd and the end in the 2nd half of the 4th century AD.
The road, which led to the roman site, was also part of the excavations. Over 120 hipposandals were found beside the road without any pavement or consolidation. These numerious hipposandals represent the biggest complex in the Roman Empire.

Gerald Grabherr, Michlhallberg - Die Ausgrabungen in der römischen Siedlung 1997-1999 und die Untersuchungen an der zugehörigen Straßentrasse. Schriftenreihe des Kammerhofmuseums Bad Aussee 21 (Bad Aussee 2001) mit Beiträgen von Friedrich Bauer/Harald Stadler, Kurt Nicolussi, Erich Pucher/Manfred Schmitzberger und Carolina Walde.
ISBN 3-901370-22-6

[Aurelianus]

Hi Martin

As I have promised, here are some Propeller stiffeners. I took the photo on a 5mm-chequered Paper.

The biggest one is - as I supposed - very next to 7 cm (2.76 inch) long.

The smalest one is just 2.1 cm (0.83 inch)

From the piece up on the left I'm not sure if it is a fitting of a belt too. But I assume it .....

In the uncataloged part of my collection it should have some Propeller stiffeners more. If it is needful I will look up there too.

P.S.:
You see, Martin, you are not the only one who is a little bit in war with English :wink:

[Publius Aelius Lucius]

Thank you Aurelian for the good Idea with the "Millimeterpapier"

In the uncataloged part of my collection it should have some Propeller stiffeners more. If it is needful I will look up there too.

Yes please, but don´t bother! There´s no hurry.

You see, Martin, you are not the only one who is a little bit in war with English

:lol: :lol: :lol: You make a joke!