We almost got banned in Greece!?

[Idomeneas]

well its a big discussion and cannot be covered within few posts. The issue has social, historical and even political hues and im not sure if we are allowed to discuss it in this forum cause its not all about ancient history.

My opinion in short is that there is a historic reason related to the relligion convertion to christianity and the way the ''ethnic'' religion was dealled from church, a social reason that relates to what the people are used as ''proper'' and a political concerning the fear of lost votes for any politician that will oppose church and what is thought as established customs. Offcourse there are religious fanatics but i think in the same analogy as in every country in the world and even less comparing with some (i will avoid examples).

Now there is another extend also. The way Hellenes supporters (i dont say believers) of ethnic relligion interacted with the public (not on that occasion) and presented or even ''sold'' themselves if im allowed to use the language of my trade (graphic design) to the media and public opinion. To tell you the truth they presented a very foggy and comfused image. What exactly they are? True believers of the Olympian pantheon? Just worshipers of the tradition and the ideas that this enclose? Reenactors? What?

Even i that i want to believe that i spend enough time reading and studying about greek heritage and history, that i have absolutelly no affection for ''shops'' that sell salvation and even contradict the original teaching of the founder of that belief (christianity) i cant say that i was thrilled by the ceremony i saw. For example the ceremony of Olympian fire is a very imposing one. that had not that quality. If i that im positive towards such ceremonies, i cant take it too serious then what do you expect from grandpapas that think those things as ''devilish'' or common people that never tryed to understand and read greek history, but their only worry is to what ''bouzoukia'' they will spend 500 euro in a night?

[spyros]

I think that Idomeneas sumed it correctly.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I also agree,Idomeneas,though I wasn't there to the ceremony.I would really like to know its reason,as you also said it was a bit confused.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Wow! I thought it would be interesting to be involved in Ancient Greek re-enactment in Greece, But did not think official opposition would exist!

I have a relative in MOD there, if that would be of interest, I could enquire what the probs might be?

Regards to all in Greece!

[Ioannis]

Byron,

The "official opposition" applies to the religious movement, not to the reenactment.

[Idomeneas]

although there are not many people in reenactment, and financial reasons play a role cause people that can set such a hobby as priority are not much, most of them are interested when its presented in the right way. Its not reenactment the problem. Its the religious matter that has opposition as Ioannis said. The church cannot accept easily competetors and especially the ones that are thought as neutralised long ago. Dont forget that Greeks are expected by definition to be orthodox. People take it for granted centuries now. But besides any arguements of the church the people that formed this union of ethnic relligion supporters did not present themselves the right way to the public. If you ask me even if i wouldnt pray to Zeus cause simply i dont believe in his existence i would respect someone that would and consider it more logical that have people believing in other religions and sects in Greece. My objection is to the point that if someones believes to a deity which he considers existing and in a religion that is ''alive'' he doesnt have to dress up to attend ceremonies. In that way its like they say that they worship a shadow of the glorious past without any projection of that religious belief in nowdays.

And lets not talk about philosophy tradition and way of life, those can be followed without any relligious ceremony. So if Christians dont dress up for mass as people of 300 AD why Olympian worshipers should? And why the rest should take it serious?

[Arthes]

Greetings Idomeneas

And lets not talk about philosophy tradition and way of life, those can be followed without any relligious ceremony. So if Christians dont dress up for mass as people of 300 AD why Olympian worshipers should? And why the rest should take it serious?

I believe it was the first ceremony held there in 1700 years, that in itself was reason to 'dress up' and celebrate the reawakening of the ancient Gods and Goddesses and to welcome them home.
Nuns quite often look like women from biblical times and monks wear the habits of the Dark Ages....the Christian priests dress in the ancient style of clothes to honour their God (and also Goddess in the case of Catholics) and so do the choirboys in their gowns, etc....! Many people who attend church wear their best clothes...hence the term for clothes as ...'Sunday best' !
Regards
Arthes

[Hoplitesmores]

Any chance we get to don armour we grab it thats what reenaction is all about.

And getting a decent amount of respect or tolerance is all we hoped for but i guess we got a decent amount of ignorance to say the least, that is the sum of the events.

[Robert Vermaat]

Catholic gowns look like a spitting image of Late Roman tunics!

[Idomeneas]

Greetings Idomeneas

And lets not talk about philosophy tradition and way of life, those can be followed without any relligious ceremony. So if Christians dont dress up for mass as people of 300 AD why Olympian worshipers should? And why the rest should take it serious?

I believe it was the first ceremony held there in 1700 years, that in itself was reason to 'dress up' and celebrate the reawakening of the ancient Gods and Goddesses and to welcome them home.
Nuns quite often look like women from biblical times and monks wear the habits of the Dark Ages....the Christian priests dress in the ancient style of clothes to honour their God (and also Goddess in the case of Catholics) and so do the choirboys in their gowns, etc....! Many people who attend church wear their best clothes...hence the term for clothes as ...'Sunday best' !
Regards
Arthes

Kalimera Arthes

The issue is abit complex. Did we really had the first ceremony after 1700 years or just some wishfull thinking about what an ancient relligious ceremony looked like? We do not have all the pieces to solve the puzzle and really recreate ancient mysteries the way they were in my opinion. Olympian pantheon indeed was the tradition in Hellas but that tradition was interrupted and some ''nice'' people back then did anything they could to burry it, and they did a fine job cause even the word Hellen was synonymous to heathen. The point is that after this tradition was broken if somebody wants to revive the Old relligion must do it in a very carefull way. First because a relligion should be respectfull by definition and second and mainly cause its part of our heritage. I believe that we cant continue from were it was left for two reasons. 1 cause it should be shown that it is a relligion that can be meanningfull in NOWdays and not just a, achaiomania 2 cause we only have few fragments of the rituals the rest are filled in with made up stuff.

The leading figures of this movement did not had the best interaction with media, its true that some media were biased towards them but there is the challenge. To be able to turn the tide with good arguements, if you cant dont appear at all in interviews and dialogues that already lean against you. Their statements comfused the public. Once they said ''we do not actually believe in Gods just in the overall philosophy'' next time ''we call upon the Gods in times of need''. So how you deal with them? As a relligion with the rightfull respect? Or as a movement of ancient spirit adoration to the point of excess?

So untill somebody clear things up in my book there was never a real ritual just a costume party. Its not about ignorance of the public, or at least its not to the point that the only bad factor is the ignorance of a part of the public. Its about really bad interaction with public.

[Anonymous]

This could quickly turn into a debate about current religions, namely, Christianity and the revived worship of the Olympian Gods. This type of debate is discouraged on the Forum, for very good reasons. You might argue that the religious element is key to the whole incident, but that would actually be an argument for ceasing to discuss the issue, at all. If we can't discuss it without "fighting our (religious) corners", it would be best to leave it here. The incident has been reported and commented on; make up your own minds about how you feel about it.

[Tarbicus]

Hmmm, too black and white that. If the police had tried to stop an event in England because they don't like the costumes we'd be all over it like a rash. It's an issue of suppression of re-enactment through unreasonable and, quite frankly, illegal means, as much as any religious issue.

[Anonymous]

Hmmm, too black and white that. If the police had tried to stop an event in England because they don't like the costumes we'd be all over it like a rash. It's an issue of suppression of re-enactment through unreasonable and, quite frankly, illegal means, as much as any religious issue.

By all means discuss the legal issues. I was refering to a tendency in later posts to discuss the religious ones. Remember, I wrote that it would be best to leave the discussion IF it was going to become one about religion. There is a problem that religion was apparently an issue in the incident.

Did the police try to stop the event? Do you know more of the details than have been published here? If so, it might be helpful to get some facts; the original post was a bit vague, I thought. Let us, by all means, hear more of the facts.

[Tarbicus]

Did the police try to stop the event? Do you know more of the details than have been published here?

Whether police or other officials, the 'authorities' in question are tax receivers trying to stop tax payers from exercising their legally rightful pursuits, in a democracy, and for personal reasons by the sounds of it.

[Idomeneas]

Well the last thing i would like is to have this discussion turn to relligion vs relligion. I try to give a hint in why things happened the way they did. The ceremony did not gained the respect of the public and in extend of the official state because of two main reasons. There is a deal of ignorance in a part of the public as always happens in all countries, dont tell me that everybody is a history lover in all countries except Greece . The group didnt gained the hearts of the public. Its beyond relligious matters. Its about communication.

The official church and any church cannot do anything if the public and in extend the state (remember the votes?) are in favour of something. I cant think that they feel really comfortable during Olympic fire ceremony but peopel adore it so they dont even dream to complain.

Now as far as what Tarbicus said its not anything about being against reenactment or trying to stop legal pursuits cause the ceremony was to be held in archaeological space, a space that needs special permission before it can be used. If somebody wanted to build a temple and hold ceremonies in there nobody would dare to stop him.