We almost got banned in Greece!?

[Tarbicus]

Now as far as what Tarbicus said its not anything about being against reenactment or trying to stop legal pursuits cause the ceremony was to be held in archaeological space, a space that needs special permission before it can be used. If somebody wanted to build a temple and hold ceremonies in there nobody would dare to stop him.

That seems to completely contradict the opening post in this thread made by Hoplitesmores. Will someone make their minds up about what happened please, because we now have two versions of events. One says the authorities intimidated the re-enactors there, the other now says not.

I should say that despite the licenses acquired by the organizers that are a recognized religion and the fact that it is allowed by Greek and European Law we as an Honourary guard were insulted several times by the "authorities" who blatantly refused to uphold the laws mentioned above.Not only we had to put up with insults but also with threats that bordered on abuse.Reenactors have not been ridiculed like this anywhere i am sure but i will not go into details.

So, did they, or didn't they? You can't have both.

[Arthes]

From what I heard, there were problems resulting from followers of a major faith (being politically correct...lol) who objected to the peaceful ceremony and/or the presence of Spartiate ... whether they happened to be the 'authorities' mentioned, I don't know.
Basically, the unpleasant attitude shown towards the Hellenes is bullying. Why a ceremony asking for world peace is considered 'degenerate' and those releasing white doves as peace symbols are 'miserable' is beyond me.... hock: Maybe it was disappointment at the lack of blood sacrifices or something :roll: :roll:
Send Alexander the Great in to sort them out I say..... :twisted:

[Peter Raftos]

I tracked down a couple of news service articles about the event. Paul is right, rather than anyone engage in religous chest beating you can read these and form your own opinions. While they may not represent a totally accurate view of the event, they may give you some insight into the state of affairs in Greece:
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/artic ... 00346.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070121/lf ... rchaeology
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/17250/g ... eus-temple
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/17251/z ... -to-temple
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/17252/z ... -in-greece
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6285397.stm [/url]

Generally the Christians and Pagans on this forum respect each others belief systems and don't use these sorts of things to beat each other up.

Yannis' comments are quite pertinent in relation to winning the hearts and minds of the media and observers. Once that is achieved they can carry the day on your behalf - even if the authorities object.

We know Themistoklis and his group do their best with costume etc, How about the rest of the participants, what period costume were they trying to portray? From the scant photos they seem to need a bit of research.

[Tarbicus]

Thanks Peter. From this quote:

"Of course we will go ahead with the event ... we will enter the site legally," said Peppa,

I wonder what was edited out between the dots? Proof they had a license?

Pretty shabby and opinionated reporting in most of those articles I have to say, and one particular report completely contradicts a firsthand account here concerning who was aggressive to who. Me personally, I never trust the press :wink:

[Idomeneas]

Tarbicus you are right not to trust press D . When they dont have a breaking new sometimes the even invent one by ''promoting'' a stupid little thing to a ''big deal''. Now imagine what happened in this case. they had nothing very big around and this happens... Simply they ate them alive. Members of this union were invited-paraded in tv news panels and shows, where they were usually baited to lose their patience and degenerate to spectacle for the masses. It annoyes me when reporters do that to people but in this case they should see it comming and present themselves in a serious manner and not as circuss. The only thing they achieved is to give the reporters some good days at work and lost the respect of the public which is sad considering we reffer to the traditional archaic relligion.

Personally me and many people i know are in favour of a revive of the ancient relligion if somebody wishes to believe in it, but in the right way. It would be wonderfull to have saved the ancient ceremonies and mysteries in their authentic form. But alas we dont. So instead of creating mambo jumbo and ''look alike'' situations maybe we should leave it as it is. In other case the outcome will not be different by the one displayed. IMO those things are very serious to play with even if the intentions are good. As usual the mass of people tend to be ignorant in some degree in various cultural aspects. thats why we are surounded by cheap forms of art, cheap movies, cheap music etc. So people that dont want to invest time in things that are away from daily worries as job, family, contemporary fun a, have a tendency to mock what they dont understand, or what they dont want to spend some time on. If the subject gives cause for mockery by itself well then... Houston we have problem :wink:

[hoplite14gr]

Well I tried to resist but its gone to far.

Things are simpler than they look.
Yannis gave some good insight.
Themistokles is not out of reality when he feels that some "main stream" are not "favorable" to the "old religion".

The authorities prevented an event based on two things:
1. The "sloppy" preparation (that includes legal staff ans licenses) of the Organizers who drugged many reenactors there without preparation.
2. The authorities decision can be disputed into court but these in Greece takes monstrously long time and money.

When I say "sloppy" I mean they didn´t´t check the minute details that the others could hung on.

As for the press, well it is absolutely free in Greece and that means free to post its prejudices and its dislike of any certain group

[Arthes]

1. Organizers who drugged many reenactors there without preparation.

I hope that is a typo for 'dragged'... !

I suppose it depends where you draw the line between 'freedom of speech' by the Press and religious discrimination
The Greek Constitution of 1975 guarantees freedom of conscience, belief and practice for people of "all known religions" except in the case of prosyletism. Which as far as I can make out is evangelism. So I assume the Hellenes are classed as 'evangelists' :?
------
"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance." Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

[geala]

I think I'm not very biased in this case as I don't believe in both of the involved religions.

For me it is more a question of public law. In modern western countries every religion (which is not against the normal laws and human rights) should have the same rights. In the EU (including Greece) that is more or less the case in my opinion. I don't see a difference between the Orthodox Church (or Catholic Church) and that ancient "reenacted" religion.

But that is no answer to the question wether a religion should be allowed to use some public places to celebrate their ceremonies. The state has to balance reasons pro and contra such enterprises. He has to strictly ensure equal treatment. If it is a rule not to allow religious ceremonies at special public places then that rule is correct if every religion is forbidden to do it in the same way. The ancient religion than has no more rights to use ancient religious places than every other religion.

We should be careful not to blame some officials without proper knowledge. As someone occupied with legal affairs I have not enough information to give a substantial vote in that affair.

Edit: @ Vortigern: Sry, normally I noticed it myself that I have forgotten it oops: (happened every time, should make it as signature)

kr
Wolfgang Zeiler

[Robert Vermaat]

geala,

Please add your real name to your signature - forum rule.

[Caballo]

Vortigern wrote " Catholic gowns look like a spitting image of Late Roman tunics!"

Spot on, Vorti! A friend of mine who recently became a Church of England vicar said that in the training they were told that present day church wear was derived strongly from fourth century Roman court dress.

Cheers

Caballo

[Arthes]

I've just typed a damn long post and was cut off in my prime as I tried to copy it..and of course I was not logged into RAT..when I was... :x
oh well.....
Basically, in answer to Geala's statement...

In modern western countries every religion (which is not against the normal laws and human rights) should have the same rights.

I agree....

If it is a rule not to allow religious ceremonies at special public places then that rule is correct if every religion is forbidden to do it in the same way.

This is difficult when practising an ancient religion, as many of the old sites have been taken over by the later religions and those that are left are now classed as 'ancient monuments' or archaeological sites and sometimes under threat of development or disturbance in the immediate vicinity, ie White Horse Stone :x x
In theory, if a Christian or Islamic, etc structure has been erected on a site previously consecrated as a temple or enclosure to Gods and Goddesses of an earlier religious belief; the followers of that belief can rightfully hold a ceremonial ritual in the same precincts. However, in many cases this would not be tolerated and could even lead to bloodshed.
If the 'Nativity' or 'Passion' are allowed to be performed in a public place...why not performances associated with older Gods and Goddesses...?
I'm just looking for an article seen on a Greek Orthodox Christian website regarding their admiration for the son of Ammon-Zeus....aka Alexander of course..its interesting what they say given the context of this thread.... :wink:

[geala]

I see the problem. But the ancient places are national values and linked with general positive feelings. Problems can occur if some groups are allowed to use it.

In Germany near Detmold there is a place with wonderful big stones, presumably used for some religious purposes in Germanic times. Some groups with "new age" religions like to make celebrations there and unfortunately also some not so likeable groups of the small right scene.

If these stones would be in Berlin and a nationalistic group would like to celebrate there because of religious reasons I would feel sympathy to every official who would forbade this.

If I got the articles right there are also small nationalistic elements among the friends of the old religion. If the normal lovers of the ancient religion, who have my sympathy, would be allowed to use the place the nationalistic groups could not be exempted if they want to use it.

I don't know wether some of the thoughts mentioned above were part of the reasons for the problems the ancient religion group had. Perhaps it was just a trial to hamper a non-christian group without proper sense. I only want to express that it is difficult to judge it by the given informations.

Edit: da.., again forgotten to insert my name

kr
Wolfgang Zeiler

[Tarbicus]

I think the nationalist suppositions only serve to confuse the debate, as we are simply talking about a legally recognised religion, and whether they had the appropriate license to hold a ceremony there.

We have conflicting reports from someone who was actually present, and the rest is hearsay and, I must say, questionable and mostly repetitive reporting.

Why would the hellenic group have been allowed into the area at all if they did not have the license to do so? The issue is not whether they are organised, or if they are nationalists, or even if they are taken seriously. I cannot understand why the guards would have eventually allowed them in if they did not have the appropriate right of access? They didn't storm the defences.

Just to add that one of the news reports claims the re-enactors threatened the guards, whereas the firsthand eyewitness account suggests the opposite.

[hoplite14gr]

Well, I was there.
The there was a heated exchange.
The authorities tried to press rank and question the documents.
The issue was about what one can or cannot do in an ancient monument premises.
From what I understood the license the organizers had got was worded in such a way so as to give some police sargent full of self importance grounds to question it.
Reanctors were finally allowed but only with shields swords and spears were forbidden.

Issues like that do not happen in ancient temples only.
In Thessaloniki last year even the church had an issue with the authorities because the wanted to offer mass in the "Rotonda of Theosdosios"-a christian temple that the ministry of culture considers a Byzantine monument.

I believe the issue was about the monuments.
Now they are under the state juristiction ( and bring revenues from tourists too!).
If any religious group "christian" or "pagan" succeeds to get them legally back as "places of worship" that can choose if they admit not belivers or not well that an issue.

To summarize:
Constitution gives freedom of worship.
Followers of ancient religion are treated with suspicion.
They have along way to go especially with leaderships that leaves a lot to be desired-at least in my opinion.
Government will not like to loose control of monuments.
And I hate to admit that but the stereotype "organized as a Greek" simply came true in this case.

My prediction: minor friction will happen until people get used to the idea
that ancient religion is alive and well and it exists.

Much ado about nothing due to mis-management.

Kind regards

[Tarbicus]

Thanks for the explanation, especially as you were there.