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rekirts · 01-29-2003, 05:10 PM

I have been trying to figure out a time frame for my character's trip to Londinium from Camboglanna on horseback. This is about 210 C.E. so there would be roads and posting houses etc. How far would he be able to travel in one day? Would he have to change horses? Speed is NOT of the essence, but he wouldn't want to dawdle either. 
 
I have been stuck on this point for months so if anyone can help, I would very much appreciate it. 
 
Wendy

mcbishop · 01-29-2003, 09:24 PM

In 1603, when Elizabeth I died, Sir Robert Carey rode from London to Edinburgh (about 350 miles, almost exclusively along Roman roads) in 2 days. This did involve 'sundry shift of horses and some falls that bruised him sore'. He once apparently won Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£2000 by walking from London to Berwick in 12 days. 
 
Much will, of course, depend upon which site you are identifying with Camboglanna ;-) but at least you now have a maximum speed! 
 
Mike Bishop

rekirts · 01-30-2003, 12:40 AM

Wow! Well, he won't need to go quite that fast 
 
I am calling Birdoswald Camboglanna. That's another thing that drove me crazy, and if I was smart I would just have changed my setting to a fort that was more certainly identified. However, I am stubborn, not smart. 
 
Wendy

mcbishop · 01-30-2003, 02:05 AM

Like the fashion for flared trousers, the allocation of Wall fort names tends to be cyclical - wait long enough and you will be right! 
 
Mike Bishop

01-30-2003, 03:51 PM

Another consideration: by 1600 the domestic horse had undergone a milennium and a half of selective breeding. Did the horses of the ancient world have the stregth and endurance of their descendants?

Daniel S Peterson · 01-30-2003, 05:42 PM

John, 
On the Limesmarch with Marcus Junkelmann, we used the tough little Carmarque horses from Southern France. Marcus believed the skeletal characteristics of some ancient Roman horses were quite close to these. They had excellent endurance and on some day we were up to 16 hours in the saddle (real 4-horned Roman saddles), and carried full Roman eqipment. This went on for several weeks straight, and no horses dropped out. 
 
Dan

rekirts · 01-30-2003, 07:12 PM

Dan, 
 
I have a few questions I'm hoping you can help me with. 
 
First of all, I don't know anything about horses, which is a problem. I have my Centurion buying a horse for his own personal use from a local British horse-trader. I say the horse has Iberian blood, but I don't really know if this is logical or reasonable. Do you have any suggestions of breeds that might have been used by a soldier apx. 200 C.E.? 
 
At first I wanted him to ride his own horse all the way to Londinium, but I didn't want the trip to take forever, and I don't know how far a horse could travel per day without wearing out. It's 200 and some miles and I was hoping they could complete it in about a week. 
 
Any thoughts from anyone will be greatly appreciated.

***Praefectusclassis*** · 01-30-2003, 07:59 PM

Lionel Casson, Travel in the Ancient World (repr.Baltimore 1994), p.184 ff, has some pointers: 
- mansiones, inns were about 25-35 miles apart, about a day's travel in a carriage. The simplest form of inn, hostels, were about 12 miles apart, slightly less than a good days' walking. 
- (18EM Couriers using the cursus publicus could do about 50 miles per day, in emergencies, they could treble that. 
 
Greets 
 
Jasper

01-31-2003, 01:42 AM

Thanks, Dan. That's more info for my novels.

Daniel S Peterson · 01-31-2003, 04:50 PM

Wendy, 
I believe a Carmargue would be a good choice for a Roman horse what with all the work Marcus has done with them, but there is a danger of stereotyping all Roman horses as 'small'. Several Roman horses have been over 15 hands, which by 18th century military standards would be a 'large' enough horse suitable for the heavy cavalry. A good book on this subject is 'The Roman Cavalry' by Dixon and Southern. 
 
But as for 200 miles in a week, that is a very easy march over a known route on decent roads. Our Limes march often took us cross country, and after a huge windstorm when there were thousands of fallen trees blocking our route. We once even had a rotten, wooden bridge collapse under the horses! 
 
Dan

rekirts · 01-31-2003, 05:55 PM

Dan, 
 
Thanks much. I'll see if I can find that book. I put my main character in the infantry because of my ignorance about horses, but it didn't help 'cause he can't walk everywhere. M 
Too bad they didn't ride dogs. I have a couple of those. E EM 
 
Wendy

02-01-2003, 12:20 PM

Rekirts, your man could ride a mule too. They were much used in roman times. And 200 miles in a week on horseback is quite a normal pace. Last time I rode a horse we covered 43 kilometers in one day with one stop for lunch. And I am an undertrained, smoking, fifty years old sedentary city dweller.. 
OK, I was exhausted, but I survived.. 
Your man being a centurion, he should not have any problem. 
As for the horse's breed, Iberian is a good guess. Also check out for gallic tribes. The Bigerriones for instance, in SW France, were famous horse breeders. So, "a fine aquitanian bay" would be a good guess too. 
Horses have been cross-bred for a long time and there is no way of determining exactly the breed of horses 2000 years ago. Only guessing.

02-01-2003, 08:36 PM

"I have my centurion buying a horse for his own personal use from a local British horse-trader. I say the horse has Iberian blood but I don't know if this is logical or reasonable." 
 
I think the ancient Iberian stock was pretty primitive and ugly and would not have had any advantage over the ancient British breeds that were around at the time and were more or less the same size. In fact there is no reason you cannot find a suitable 'candidate' for your centurion from amongst the British ponies. 
The Exmoor for example is a very ancient breed-amongst the oldest in the world-and has changed little in the last 2000 years. It is very, very strong, noted for it's galloping ability and able to carry weight well out of proportion for it's size. So it would have no problem carrying a fully equipped cavalry-or infantryman for that matter. The couple of Exmoors kept by a riding school i went to as a kid were ridden almost exclusively by adults as they were just too strong and temperamental for the younger kids. 
The Romans were also acquainted with the Welsh pony too and apparently the first to 'improve' it by introducing eastern blood (though what breeds I don't know.) Today it has a slightly Arabian appearance although this is the result of much later influxes of Arabian blood. 
Then there is the black Friesian horse, the ancestor of the modern native Dale and Fell breeds. This horse is generally acknowledged to have been originally introduced into Britain by Roman auxiliary cavalrymen. A quite heavy looking horse, today it stands about 15hh and above, though I don't know how high it was in Roman times. Like most types there has been a lot of cross breeding over the centuries. 
I guess though it's most likely your centurion would not have been mounted on anything much bigger than 14hh. 
Just out of curiosity is he buying a stallion, mare or gelding? I noticed that a lot of writers seem to have a penchant for feisty stallions. Geldings are generally more practical for simple riding purposes. And in the equine world of course- unlike in the human one-females are often more highly prized than males! 
Oh and by the way, modern endurance riding competitions can cover 100miles (160km) in one day. That gives some idea how much distance one can cover without a change of horse, and not necessarily over good, well made roads all the way. 
Jackie.

mcbishop · 02-01-2003, 09:38 PM

Not to throw too big a spanner in the works, there is little evidence that riding horses were used for transport in Roman Britain. My example of Sir Robert Carey just gives a maximum speed in a pre-industrial Britain. In the Roman period, (so far as we know) horses were mainly ridden by the cavalry and officers, whereas official transport would tend to be by ox- or mule-drawn wheeled vehicle. Again, the evidence is that horses were unshod and thus would not have ridden on the roads, but beside them. Perhaps a centurion with the right social contacts could have arranged to pick up a new mount at every fort, but if just travelling on an official docket he would probably have been stuck with the slower wheeled option. 
 
Mike Bishop

02-03-2003, 05:25 AM

Mike, I don't know about tossing a spanner in the works (maybe a horseshoe would be more appropiate?) but I'm getting a bit confused here. You say horses were mainly ridden by cavalry and officers-wouldn't centurions have fallen in the latter category? 
I have just dug up a little booklet by Graham Webster in which he states that centurions were mounted on the march. He's actually talking about the wearing of greaves i.e. the fact that regular soldiers sacrificed such protection as they hampered mobility on the march, whilst centurions who rode wore them. I do realize this publication is very dated and current thinking on the subject may well be different now but I can't find any other reference to it at all. 
If true, then it suggests a centurion would have had a horse at his disposal anyway-possibly a personal possession-and I doubt would have opted for an ox-cart. Sorry, but I can't think of many things much worse (well actually I can but I'm not going to mention them here <!-- ) than being jolted round a couple of hundred miles on a Roman wagon. Apart from being excrutiatingly slow, it must have been damned uncomfortable...no suspension system etc... 
And in the case of a centurion might not plodding along on an oxcart be just a wee bit damaging to one's sense of gravitas? Though the vine staff might come in handy for rump smacking M 
As for horseshoes or lack of them, I don't think it's really a issue in how widespread horseback riding was. If the cavalry managed without them so could everybody else! And as you said, riding could be done off road if conditions were tough. One has to remember that even today there are many less developed areas of the world where horses are ridden unshod. 
It's also possible that the Romans used some protective covering on the horses feet in particularily bad terrain. If it was something like leather, it probably would not have survived or been recognizable in the archaeological record. I seem to remember reading something about American Indians protecting their horses feet this way. 
Jackie

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