Armour Piercing Pugio?

[Tarbicus]

Cheers Jim! I suppose thats why the Gladius Hispanensis had them as well?

I still have seen no proof of this?

The GH? It was supposedly made from strong and springy Spanish steel, and probably thicker than a pugio. Why would it need a rib or fullering for strength? The 'suction' argument can be used in the case of the GH, Mainz, Fulham and Pompeii blades as well - why weren't they all fullered, especially as they were primarily a thrusting weapon?

However, Dan's point about fullers explains all in the case of those pugiones with them. If the ribbed pugiones were thinner in cross section, then surely strengthening's a viable explanation ? As for the ones with neither, well, they just didn't have them, and that was that.

[Dan Howard]

I still have seen no proof of this? As I was saying, I tend to go by my own experience of suction in moist matter when I draw a conclusion!

Go to an abbatoir and stab some freshly killed animals with any sort of blade you like (I have done this with about a dozen different blades). There is no suction. If you have a thin blade and accidentally hit a bone, it will bend or break. That is the whole reason why some blades have a mid rib.

[Virilis]

If you have a thin blade and accidentally hit a bone, it will bend or break. That is the whole reason why some blades have a mid rib.

Yes, that`s it in a nutshell considering that most pugios have a long & narrow tapering (vulnerable) points. The shape is made for stabbing, period.

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Dan,
I still have seen no proof of this? As I was saying, I tend to go by my own experience of suction in moist matter when I draw a conclusion!

Gaius,

Firsthand account from my great uncle who fought in Korea. "Bayonets were easy to withdraw from human bodies. If they were stuck in the bone we were told to fire our weapon to help withdraw".

I do not believe that any blade is going to be pulled into the body via suction of internal organs.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well that is more like it! At least a better answer than "it's a myth"! :lol:

Most of the people I knew personally who served did not tend to go into those details, so I can accept your great uncle's word! I have heard of the shot to remove the bayonet story tho! Wonder if that will be de-bunked too!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I still have seen no proof of this? As I was saying, I tend to go by my own experience of suction in moist matter when I draw a conclusion!

Go to an abbatoir and stab some freshly killed animals with any sort of blade you like (I have done this with about a dozen different blades). There is no suction. If you have a thin blade and accidentally hit a bone, it will bend or break. That is the whole reason why some blades have a mid rib.

Well Dan, I would love to try that with my Albion gladius, but as much as I would like to, over here that kind of request would probably result in an armed response team crashing through the door shortly after I made the enquiry, so, sadly, will have to wait until I own my own estate with no nosey neighbours! Or maybe a large roast! :lol:

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Well Dan, I would love to try that with my Albion gladius, but as much as I would like to, over here that kind of request would probably result in an armed response team crashing through the door shortly after I made the enquiry, so, sadly, will have to wait until I own my own estate with no nosey neighbours! Or maybe a large roast! :lol:

I am sure you could go back to Canada and find a stray moose or two :wink:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmmmmm, I think I'll stay here for now! 8)

[tommy303]

I believe the popular misconception of a blade getting stuck in a body by suction was the result of misinformed or mistaken observations of soldiers in combat. It is true that sometimes a blade maybe difficult to withdraw, but suction has little to do with it and the presence of fullers or ridges in the blade will not solve the problem.

What was being witnessed, but apparently not understood was the autonomic reaction of a human body to trauma. When struck, whether by a fist, bullet, arrow, sword, dagger, or anything else for that matter, the muscles of the body will contract to try and minimize damage or penetration--ie form as much a barrier as possible to protect the inner organs and skeletal structure from the force of the impact. These tensed and contracted muscles will still be tightly gripping a blade as it is withdrawn, assuming the victim is still alive, which will usually be the case. A fairly wide blade such as a pugio's or a gladius' will provide a greater area for the muscles to grip, but, being double edged, the blade will have cut a wider channel through muscle and by severing one or more muscles, will minimize the amount of pressure being exerted on the blade compared to a fairly narrow bayonet which caused much more localized damage to the musculature.

A deceased human body, side of beef, or hog will naturally not be reacting to a stab in that sort of experiment, and so withdrawing a blade will usually present no difficulty provided it does not become wedged between ribs or in a joint of some sort.

Thomas

[Magnus]

Well that is more like it! At least a better answer than "it's a myth"! :lol:

Hahaha, sorry Byron, I just didnt' have the time to go searching for the appropriate thread on Sword Forum for ya. But it's been discussed there quite in-depth.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Thanks for the detailed response Tommy!
The sword forum sounds interesting Matt, will have to look it up!
Sorry if this is old hat to you guys, but it is news to me, so obtuse answers without an explanation do little to enlighten me, and that is why I joined this forum, to learn, not to take everything thrown at me at face value!
No offense to all you who may have heard this before!

[A_Volpe]

I've always thought that the midrib on the Pugiones that have them was both for extra strength, for whichever attack or at whatever target you're going for...I'm sure a midribbed pugio makes short work of a ribcage, and it's possible that it could punch through, albeit partially, maille armor...Perhaps in far enough to puncture the body...Just as much as it would make short work of a stomach, throat, face, et cetera.

I've also thought for a long time that the midrib was influenced from earlier styles and construction of earlier weapons - ie Greek/Etruscan spear heads, daggers...Romans adopting Greek/Etruscan styled arms and armor into the Legions is apparent - for instance the Tribunes and Legate wearing the "Greek" style muscled cuirass. It may or may not have been an effective armor for the Romans against the "Iron Age" weapons, but it was a traditonal style that the Romans really liked, and was easily distinguishable compared to the "regular" troops....And who said Romans were practical? :roll:

...Much the same as the Hoplite style of combat and it's type of weapons/tactics go out of style for the Manipular or 3-Rank system and so on.

It might be the particular Pugio with the midrib might have been more of a stylistic influence, but could have also been an extra reinforcement, perhaps one that fell out of style as the years go on - hence the "flat" bladed pugio....I'm unsure about this, but doesn't the midrib go out of style by the 200's? It could be coincidence that the "Greek Style" Lorica Hamata/Maille armor, with the shoulder doubling, went out of style around the same time. Not that it was ineffective, but perhaps more because it was just "old".

In a (I know...Hoaky) comparison, the .45 Colt pistol - M1911 - remained in service for a very long time, and remained virtually unchanged in it's construction and mechanism. It was reliable and could knock someone flat in a hurry, regardless of it being heavy....Only recently was the M9 Barretta 9mm introduced, but wasn't this more for economy as well as better compatability to NATO/UN standards? Given the choice, I think I'd opt for the .45 over the 9mm, but then, that's personal...

((Or, how about the infamous K-BAR knife? Why did it remain in use/so popular, as compared to say, that "Rambo"/Bowie-style knife?
Dare I say...A knife is a knife...but (everyone's) heard of a K-BAR
("Dat's naut a knife, mayte...") ))

I'd say much the same as a Pugio with or without a midrib. If the Legionary chooses to carry a midribbed Pugio because he feels it'll be "stronger"/"reliable", OR perhaps because it's a tried-and-true, "traditional" style...?

[Tarbicus]

Other shapes seem to have been in use as well:

http://www.roma-victrix.com/armamentari ... _brugg.htm

[Magnus]

I found the site that had some cool pics of pugio blades...it's Exploratio:

[url:79yxxaje]http://www.exploratio.org/image_database/exploratio.htm[/url]