Hunnish-Magyar language lesson.

[Treveri Gaul]

Hello.

The Chinese people, called this the Hunnish tribe: zsüan-zsüan tribe.

In Europe somebody, at the Wallis valley to meet the Hunnish cavalry you have not be in language problems :lol:

Magyar/Hunnish

egy - idzsi, 1
kettõ - keltü, 2
három - khormu, 3
négy - nijdzsi, 4
öt - hütü, 5
hat - hotu, 6
hét - jeti, 7
nyolc - loncsoj, 8
kilenc - klüntiz, 9
tíz - tíz, 10
tizenegy - tiz hen idzsi, 11
tizenkettõ - tiz hen keltu, 12
tizenhárom - tiz hen khormu, 13
tizennégy - tiz hen nijdzsi, 14
tizenöt - tiz hen hütü, 15
tizenhat - tiz hen hotu, 16
tizenhét - tiz hen jeti, 17
tizennyolc - tiz hen loncsoj, 18
tizenkilenc - tiz hen klüntiz, 19
húsz - khuszi, 20

száz - száth, 100
ezer - hezer, 1000

[Chariovalda]

Well, well, that's amazing!

I actually thought it was pretty impossible to decide which language the Huns spoke, since they left almost nothing in terms of words (just a tiny bit in Chinese records) and most recorded "Hunnish" (Europe) and "Xiong-Nu" names (China) are difficult to classify (Germanic or Germanized versions in Europe for instance, like Attila).

Of course, nationalistically inclined Turkish/Turkic writers (as well as their Hungarian "Turanianist" spiritual cousins) claim Hunnic as Turkic. Just check Wikipedia, and notice the fact that a lot of the writers have, erm, Turkish or Hungarian names.

Sigh

Anyway, the story of Turanianism and pseudolinguistics is pretty interesting by itself, but it'll have to wait for now. I would like to post this comment I found on the Hunnish language:

Paul Kekai Manansala <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>We don't know for sure what the original Scythians spoke. Some of the
>Scythian vocabulary given by Herodotus has been analyzed as Altaic.

Herodotus isn't very explicit about the Scythian vocabulary, and some
of the things he claims are almost certainly bogus, like his
explanation of the name "Arimaspians" as from Scythian <arima> "one"
and <spou> "eye", which can be neither Ossetian ("one" = <yu>, "eye"
= <ca"st>) nor Turkic ("one" = <bir>, "eye" = <go"r> ~ <go"z>), nor
any other known Eurasian language at all (I've checked Mark
Rosenfelder's numbers pages and was unable to find any language with
a word for "one" similar to *<arima>). I'd say the word
"Arimaspians" sounds very much as if it contains Iranian <aspa>
"horse".

We know that before the first documented Turkic presence in Central
Asia (8th. century Orkhon inscriptions, and before that a 6th century
Turkic document in Sogdian script found in Mongolia), most of the
languages spoken in Central Asia ("Russian" and "Chinese" Turkestan)
were Iranian. There is a large number of Sogdian, Saka-Khotanese and
Old Khwarezmian documents that testify to this. Additionally,
another IE language, Tocharian, was spoken in the Tarim basin.
Less is known with certainty about the Bactrian and Scytho-Sarmatian
languages, but it is generally thought that modern Pashto of
Afghanistan derives from Bactrian, and modern Ossetic of the Northern
Caucasus derives from Scytho-Sarmatian. Likewise, Yaghnobi, spoken
near Samarkand, is the modern decendant of Sogdian (most Sogdian
speakers in Central Asia adopted Turkic languages or Persian, locally
known as Tajiki.

The evidence for the Iranian character of Scythian, apart from the
identification Saka==Scythian (and Saka-Khotanese is a
well-documented Middle Iranian lg.), is based on ancient glosses
(Hesychius gives "melition: a Scythian drink", clearly from the IE
word for "honey, mead", Herodotus' Oior-pata "man-killer" (=Amazon),
has been connected with IE *wi:ros, Skt. vi:ra- "man"), and the
evidence of toponymics, especially the South Russian/Ukrainian river
names Don, Dnestr, Dnepr < PIran *da:nu "river", cf. Oss. <don>
"water, river", *<da:nu nazdya> and *<danu apara>, the "front" and
"back" rivers, respectively. Another Iranian etymology is Caucasus <
*xrohu-kasi- "ice-shiny".

Now it's perfectly possible that the Scythian tribes in the Ukraine
had assimilated large numbers of non-Iranian peoples. Herodotus
tells us that when the Scythians arrived in Europe they drove out the
original inhabitants, the Cimmerians (linguistic affiliation unknown,
possibly Indo-European of the Daco-Thracian group). And the
"Scythian farmers" described by Herodotus are considered by many to
be Proto-Slavs.

Likewise, it is possible that the Scythian/Saka and Sogdian tribes
living to the north and east of the literate areas along the "Silk
road" were mixed with Yeniseian or Altaic peoples. Precisely because
no documents are known (or ever will be) from these areas, we just
don't know.

The same, or worse, goes for the linguistic affiliations of the
Xiong-nu, the (Western) Huns, the HuNa or White Huns or Hephthalites,
the Juan-Juan or Ju-Jan, the Avars or Varchonites, the Sabir,
Utrigur, Kutrigur and Onogur "Huns", the Toba (Tabgach), the
Hsien-Pei, etc. All of these have been identified as Turkic or
Mongolian based more on geographical than on linguistic criteria.
The reason for this is that linguistic evidence is in most cases
completely absent.

The question of the Hunnish language has been treated extensively by
Gerhard Doerfer in his article "Zur Sprache der Hunnen", Central
Asiatic Journal XVII/1973, 1-50. He concludes that we just can't
conclude anything. The Xiong-Nu may not even have been the same
people or spoken the same language as Atilla's Huns or the Hun.a
(Hephthalites, White Huns) of Afghanistan/India. The glosses given
by Byzantine authors of "Hunnish" words are all either Slavic or
Daco-Thracian, words that the Huns had picked up after their arrival
in the Hungarian plain. The names of most Hunnish leaders are
Germanic (e.g. Attila) or Iranian, with only a few (the oldest)
unidentified, and therefore probably belonging to the original
Hunnish language, but those have no clear connection with any other
living or documented language.

As to the Xiong-nu, there appear to be some connections with Altaic
(*ta"ngri- "sky", given as Xion-nu "tch'eng-li" in Chinese sources),
but also with Yeniseian (Xiong-nu <kiat> "stone" ~ Yen. <khes> ~
<kit> "stone"). Given that the Xiong-nu were the earliest known
people to dominate the eastern steppes, it is not unlikely that these
words are borrowings into Turkic, Mongolian and Yeniseian from
Xiong-nu. For the rest, all we have of the Xiong-nu language is the
Chinese transcription of the sentence "Send out the army, capture the
leader", given as:

sio^g-tjeg-t'iei li@d-ka^ng
b'uok-kuk g'ju t'uk-ta^ng

Interpretations of this as Turkic have been attempted, but one can
equally turn it into Akkadian (as Doerfer has done) or into
Indo-European (my non-serious shot at it was: *siu:ntete leudhskom,
po:ng(w)ete ju duktom). Given the inadequacy of the Chinese
writing system for rendering foreign words, anything's possible.


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal

Personally, I loved the fact you could actually turn the sentence into Akkadian... :wink:

[Chariovalda]

Ah, István, I think that with "zsüan-zsüan" you mean the Juan-Juan, who have been tentatively connected with the Avars, not the Huns. They, or at least some of them, seem to have been speaking a Turkic language. You're probably well aware that Magyar has a significant number of Turkic loanwords?

I doubt you would have been able to converse with a real Juan-juan though; Dutch has a lot of Latin loanwords, but I sure wouldn't be able to converse with an ancient Roman. Heck, I wouldn't be even able to keep a conversation with somebody speaking a Lower Frankish dialect of 500 AD, even though Dutch is descended from such dialects! :roll:

[Arthes]

Slightly off topic, but still relevant.
Arimaspians - hybrid from the Scythian and Iranian description ....'[as]one with[the]horse'... the Scythians are obviously the 'centaurs' of antiquity...
I would think that Herodotus would have rather more idea of the Scythian language than Paul Manansala, seeing he lived during the same era..! How do we know what words became obscure or were changed...just like words from 300 years ago that are no longer in common usage; But we have dictionaries, so we know some of those words...the Scythians did not (unless they were in the library at Alexandria...so blame that on the Romans...!)
I have noticed before the words danu and don...both of which feature in the British Isles. The River Don, of course, has the caester...! Danu is an Irish Goddess, the Tuatha De Danaan her people. In Welsh she is known as Dôn and rivers are named Trydonwy and Dyfrdonwy
Danu was also the name of a Hindu Goddess of the waters... the origins of the word seem to mean 'flowing'...
There could be some connection there...as the Tuatha De Danaan travelled by ship to Ireland. (depending on what sort of 'ship' you think of:wink: )
There again, the Scythians were said to be related to the Picts/Prytani/Britani? and some of the Irish families were supposedly descended from them, myself included by virtue of my late grandmother.... :roll: !
regards
Arthes

[Robert Vermaat]

There again, the Scythians were said to be related to the Picts/Prytani/Britani?

bede made a statement to that effect, implying the Picts came from the East. But I would not put too much trust in the scientific level of that..

[Treveri Gaul]

Hello.

Chariovala. Excellent. :lol: Juan-juan=zsüan-zsüan

The Hunnish tribe how language was talking?

In the Middle Age not Hungaryan source was write, Hunnish language called: " Roar of lions. Interrested. Why? In Iran and Caucasus, the people Lion called MAGARA /or MAGARI /or MAGYAR name.

[Chariovalda]

I would think that Herodotus would have rather more idea of the Scythian language than Paul Manansala, seeing he lived during the same era..!

I hope so. Carrasquer Vidal, who wrote the reply, seems to be a historical linguist (I encountered some of his articles) who studied and works in the Netherlands (not sure he still does), but Manansala seems to be an "independent historian". When you encounter a self-description like that, you're probably dealing with somebody without a degree in history and not overly bothered with the discipline's methodologies... :?

On the other hand, from a few things I've read he seems to be polite and make reasoned arguments, which is more than I can say of a lot of people, including some who can wave proper academic credentials :roll:

A final note concerning Herodotus: Yes, he lived in the same era, and he seems to have actually visited Scythia. However, he was no trained linguist and the temptation to make unwarranted linguistic speculations, especially considering distant countries and peoples, is never far away. Ancient, medieval and early modern (and many amateur modern!) linguistic speculations are always suspect.

To quote the old Father of Li..er, history:

Now the Egyptians, before the reign of their king Psammetichus, believed themselves to be the most ancient of mankind. Since Psammetichus, however, made an attempt to discover who were actually the primitive race, they have been of opinion that while they surpass all other nations, the Phrygians surpass them in antiquity. This king, finding it impossible to make out by dint of inquiry what men were the most ancient, contrived the following method of discovery:- He took two children of the common sort, and gave them over to a herdsman to bring up at his folds, strictly charging him to let no one utter a word in their presence, but to keep them in a sequestered cottage, and from time to time introduce goats to their apartment, see that they got their fill of milk, and in all other respects look after them. His object herein was to know, after the indistinct babblings of infancy were over, what word they would first articulate. It happened as he had anticipated. The herdsman obeyed his orders for two years, and at the end of that time, on his one day opening the door of their room and going in, the children both ran up to him with outstretched arms, and distinctly said "Becos." When this first happened the herdsman took no notice; but afterwards when he observed, on coming often to see after them, that the word was constantly in their mouths, he informed his lord, and by his command brought the children into his presence. Psammetichus then himself heard them say the word, upon which he proceeded to make inquiry what people there was who called anything "becos," and hereupon he learnt that "becos" was the Phrygian name for bread. In consideration of this circumstance the Egyptians yielded their claims, and admitted the greater antiquity of the Phrygians.

So much for cutting-edge linguistic science in Antiquity...:roll:

I have noticed before the words danu and don...both of which feature in the British Isles. The River Don, of course, has the caester...! Danu is an Irish Goddess, the Tuatha De Danaan her people. In Welsh she is known as Dôn and rivers are named Trydonwy and Dyfrdonwy...There again, the Scythians were said to be related to the Picts/Prytani/Britani? and some of the Irish families were supposedly descended from them, myself included by virtue of my late grandmother.... :roll: !

I suppose they might very well be related words. As for "Scythian" roots of the Pretani, the Gaels and other Celtic peoples, I wouldn't put too much faith in those stories. They are part of the genre of giving peoples a pedigree reaching back to regions and peoples familiar from either the classical authors and mythology or the Bible. The Franks, for instance, were supposed to be descended from the Trojans, just like the Britons by way of Brutus. And we all know the supposed Trojan ancestry of the Romans...

More substantial links between the Celtic-speaking peoples and the Scythians can be found, I think, in two things. First, common Indo-European linguistic and cultural roots (which possibly may include a few genes as well - though at best not much at the western end of the spread of Indo-European languages). Second, the Scythians and the eastern end of the Hallstatt Culture populations were in contact in the Danube basin, presumably leading to mutual cultural borrowings and (voluntary and/or involuntary) geneflow. Heh...involuntary geneflow...admit, that sounds nicer than "rape and kidnapping". Erm, I digress... :wink:
(Read Kristian Kristiansen's "Europe Before History", specifically the chapter "New Economic Axis, 750-450 BC, and continue from there...)
Finally, if you can trace some of your ancestors to areas where the Romans settled groups of Sarmatians or Alans, or otherwise to the middle and lower Danube region, chances are you'll have some Scythian/Sarmatian/Alan ancestors. Of course, most of your (or anybody else's for that matter)ancestors will have been ordinary farmers, not mounted warrior aristocrats galloping out of the steppe...

[Virilis]

This is really interesting!:

egy - idzsi, 1 (finnish=yksi)
kettõ - keltü, 2 (finnish=kaksi)
három - khormu, 3 (finnish=kolme)
négy - nijdzsi, 4 (finnish=neljä)

It seems that finnish lanquage has more in common with the old hunnic lanquage than hungarian hock: ...

[Robert Vermaat]

Finnish and Hungarian are supposed to be related, aren't they?

[Virilis]

Finnish and Hungarian are supposed to be related, aren't they?

Oh yes, finnish is a part of the fenno-ugrian lanquages, closely related to hungarian. Anyway recent genetics studies has shown that we are not closely related to hungarians, the closest relatives to us in that respect are the swedes and surprise, surprise, the dutch :wink: !

[Virilis]

This might be interesting to some:
http://www.lib.helsinki.fi/bff/399/wiik.html

[Chariovalda]

Yup, that's amazing.
I wonder where those Juan-juan words come from, the people in question disappear from history in the 6th century after being defeated by the first "Turkish" empire. The tentative connection with the Avars of Europe is just that - tentative.
There is no real evidence for a direct connection between Huns and Avars anyway, although (some of) ancestors of the Juan-juan may have been part of the Xiong-Nu confederacy, just as some of the ancestors of the European Avars may have been part of the European Huns.

What bothers me is the fact that I can't find any reference to the language of the Juan-juan. In fact, I don't know if there are any records of whatever language the Juan-juan spoke; the earliest inscriptions of any size I know of are in Turkish runes and date to the 8th century (so-called Orkhon inscriptions).

Some of the names and titles of the European Avars seem to be Turkic. However, Turkic numbers are very different from Hungarian and Finnish ones, who are definitely related languages.

(Uygur/Uzbek/Turkish):

One: bir/bir/bir
Two: ikki / ikki/iki
Three: uq / uch/uç
Four: töt / t'ort/dört
Five: bex/besh/bä

I'm rather curious where Istvan got his info from...and how reliable the source is :? wink: .

[Chariovalda]

Finnish and Hungarian are supposed to be related, aren't they?

Oh yes, finnish is a part of the fenno-ugrian lanquages, closely related to hungarian. Anyway recent genetics studies has shown that we are not closely related to hungarians, the closest relatives to us in that respect are the swedes and surprise, surprise, the dutch :wink: !

And for those who are interested, here's two articles I found some time ago:

virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/where_do.html

and

virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/geeneng.html

[Treveri Gaul]

Hallo Andreas.

You have very good question. The Hungarian language have 1 million words. 1750 words incoming from Türkish language, relation to agriculture. Finn-Ugor Contact? Very interrested.

[Chariovalda]

This might be interesting to some:
http://www.lib.helsinki.fi/bff/399/wiik.html

Hi Jyrki,

Thanks for this link, it did help me to *connect* certain things. I accidentally stumbled on some references to Kaleva's theory several years ago, mentioning his idea there was an "Uralic" substrate to the Germanic languages.

It appears that the ideas of Kaleva and his supporters have been largely rejected by the rest of the discipline of historical linguistics, though it certainly gave them, for as long as it lasts, fame and glory. 8)

I especially loved a comment by one of their critics, the German historical linguist Cornelius Hasselblatt, calling the way they built their hypotheses "methodikfreien transdisziplinären Hypereklektizismus". Ah, don't you love academic German?

A criticism in English, by the young Dutch linguist Merlijn de Smit can be found here: [url:1vha5vvh]http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/articleprint.php?num=77[/url]

He also mentions Sigurd Wettenhovi-Aspa, a Finnish writer who was the father of "Fenno-Egyptology"...claiming a Finnish-Egyptian origin for all European languages and civilisation as we know it...
There's a hilarious list of Wettenhovi-Aspa's etymologies here: [url:1vha5vvh]http://koti.welho.com/msilvone/w-aspa/fenno.html[/url]

My favourite was doubtlessly Hispania as being derived from "Hiisipainijaisenmaa", "Land of the Terrible Frost Devil". Yup, sounds like Spain... :roll:

(You can find more information about Wettenhovi-Aspa in English in the excellent article "Revolution has no use for savants. A Fenno-Egyptian view of Afrocentrism" by the Finnish historian Pekka Masonen. The article deals with the problem of the abuse of ancient history, to be precise that of Egypt, by Afrocentrist "scholars". Not directly relevant to Rome and its enemies perhaps, but it does discuss nationalistically / racially inspired interpretations of ancient history. It can be found here [url:1vha5vvh]http://www.cairn.info/redirect.php?SCRIPT=/load_pdf.php&ID_REVUE=AFHI&ID_NUMPUBLIE=AFHI_001&ID_ARTICLE=AFHI_001_0169[/url]

By the way, I am starting to wonder whether this thread and some related ones shouldn't be moved to the OT section...it's more about outrageous claims involving Roman and ancient history and resulting criticisms than actual meaningful discussions of Roman and Greek history...