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Spartan pederasty?
#61
I have to say that I haven't been keeping as close tabs on my beloved Greek history as much as I would like to this year, having been studying art instead! Still, I have read some things relevant to the subject, so I would like to bring it up again. Please keep in mind, I've had a bit of liquid courage, so I apologise if anything doesn't make sense. Smile

I read Cartledge's writings on the subject, which is something I should have done a long time ago - instead, I relied on those first hand sources. But Cartledge brought an important and modern perspective. Cartledge, though seemingly inconclusive, still points further to the direction that the Spartans practiced sexual pederasty, while I continue to see it is chaste - (this is to clarify not reflective of my current political views, as I'm certainly not conservative, rather this is my judgement over what I have read). Cartledge, however, still considers the subject inconclusive, despite the information we have. Which I certainly respect, rather than going all gospel on something that is still unproven and subjective. Certainly, the prospect of sexual pederasty seems still likely - Cartledge mentions it appearing later in the 5th century BC, if any time at all - which I figure is a reflection of Xenophon stating whether or not the Spartans still follow Lykurgos' law in his writing. With that source, it's dubious. So as far as I'm concerned, it's completely unconfirmed, with both sides having their share of decent sources. Again, though - nothing should be taken as gospel. All that bothers me is the continuing accepted fact in a lot of professional writings that the Spartans did indeed practice sexual pederasty, when that can not be as of yet proven. This does not bother me if it weren't for the fact that this is a dominating view of their society to non-historians, supposedly if only for the fact that it would be illegal in the modern western world. It bothers me because there is so much more to their culture that people are clearly missing.

Lastly, I see this post may seem as if I'm acting that Cartledge is the essential resource on Spartans - I don't see it that way at all. This is just my response to what he has written in regards to their pederasty.
[Image: parsiaqj0.png]
[size=92:7tw9zbc0]- Bonnie Lawson: proudly Manx.[/size]
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#62
Quote:It bothers me because there is so much more to their culture that people are clearly missing.

I agree completely. I have no doubt that pederasty existed in Sparta- human nature is such that it exists everywhere and the institution of pairing young men and boys would surely fascilitate this. My problem is that Cartledge and others state that it is the pederasty that was institutionalized, drawing on anthropological comparison with Melanesians who must obligately recieve semen from older me to become men themselves. I recall reading Cartledge someplace stating that he had decided on the existence of institutionalized anal intercourse because it was used to dehumanize the young men and make them like beasts- hence the herds and herd leaders.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#63
Quote:I have to say that I haven't been keeping as close tabs on my beloved Greek history as much as I would like to this year, having been studying art instead! Still, I have read some things relevant to the subject, so I would like to bring it up again. Please keep in mind, I've had a bit of liquid courage, so I apologise if anything doesn't make sense. Smile

I read Cartledge's writings on the subject, which is something I should have done a long time ago - instead, I relied on those first hand sources. But Cartledge brought an important and modern perspective. Cartledge, though seemingly inconclusive, still points further to the direction that the Spartans practiced sexual pederasty, while I continue to see it is chaste - (this is to clarify not reflective of my current political views, as I'm certainly not conservative, rather this is my judgement over what I have read). Cartledge, however, still considers the subject inconclusive, despite the information we have. Which I certainly respect, rather than going all gospel on something that is still unproven and subjective. Certainly, the prospect of sexual pederasty seems still likely - Cartledge mentions it appearing later in the 5th century BC, if any time at all - which I figure is a reflection of Xenophon stating whether or not the Spartans still follow Lykurgos' law in his writing. With that source, it's dubious. So as far as I'm concerned, it's completely unconfirmed, with both sides having their share of decent sources. Again, though - nothing should be taken as gospel. All that bothers me is the continuing accepted fact in a lot of professional writings that the Spartans did indeed practice sexual pederasty, when that can not be as of yet proven. This does not bother me if it weren't for the fact that this is a dominating view of their society to non-historians, supposedly if only for the fact that it would be illegal in the modern western world. It bothers me because there is so much more to their culture that people are clearly missing.

Lastly, I see this post may seem as if I'm acting that Cartledge is the essential resource on Spartans - I don't see it that way at all. This is just my response to what he has written in regards to their pederasty.

First of all dont worry about little liquid courage, i just came home from a tavern and i drunk so much wine that i think it will come off my ears :lol: .

I wouldnt mind that much about Cartledge. If we are ready to doubt sources and go further, why cant we doubt a guy that just had a theory. I cant see anywhere that pederasty was institution, quite the opposite.
By the way i read Spartans of Cartledge and found it one of the worse writen books i ever read. Back and forth back and forth recycling material that was sufficient for a book only 1/3 of the original size.
aka Yannis
----------------
Molon lave
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#64
Quote:I wouldnt mind that much about Cartledge. If we are ready to doubt sources and go further, why cant we doubt a guy that just had a theory. I cant see anywhere that pederasty was institution, quite the opposite.

By the way i read Spartans of Cartledge and found it one of the worse writen books i ever read. Back and forth back and forth recycling material that was sufficient for a book only 1/3 of the original size.

Well the fact is we can't be dogmatic. The extant source material would - to me - clearly indicate homo-erotic relationships as a part of Spartan life.

Perhaps you might read Cartlege's A Regional History of Laconia. Somewhat deeper than the television handbook The Spartans.
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#65
Quote:Well the fact is we can't be dogmatic. The extant source material would - to me - clearly indicate homo-erotic relationships as a part of Spartan life.

Homoerotic is not homosexual, a point that seems lost on so many authors. When commercials market perfume to women by having half-naked female models parade around the screen they are tapping into homoerotic imagery. Women find the image attractive and erotic. They do not want to have sex with her.

This is important because the image of boys "at the age when they are most beautiful" would have been equally likely to have been used by an ancient greek beer commercial as a pretty girl. They could assign eros equally.

There is a huge difference between saying that there was a homoerotic element to the link between "lovers" and assigning obligate intercourse.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#66
Why would modern Greeks be offended by the intones found on Etruscan vases? (And why would anyone trust the info in Wikipedia. It's like buying a Rolex from a street vendor.)

As far as I know, the Etruscans probably came from Lydia. They were never Greeks in the first place. And in the "second" place (Etruria), they weren't Greeks either. And evidently their language wasn't an Indo-European one. There are theories that they may have been Minoans... which might explain whatever you want to call it. Quite frankly, I like women. And when you have some guy trying to hump Praxitile's Venus of Cniva in the middle of the night? :roll: Well, I think the Greeks liked their women as well.

Alanus, A.J. Campbell
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#67
In a dusty museum in Orvieto a few years back (or was it Viterbo) I found this joker:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb10 ... uggery.jpg

It was labeled as greek - a Syracusan find, I think. The collection had both greek and etruscan art in it, all clearly labeled.

Doesn't seem to be much room for interpretation as to what's going on here between adult males... :?
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#68
Quote:In a dusty museum in Orvieto a few years back (or was it Viterbo) I found this joker:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb10 ... uggery.jpg

It was labeled as greek - a Syracusan find, I think. The collection had both greek and etruscan art in it, all clearly labeled.

Doesn't seem to be much room for interpretation as to what's going on here between adult males... :?

Ah, but of course homosexual acts occurred in ancient Greece, it's just a question of how socially acceptable it was. No doubt it would have differed from polis to polis, that can be sourced to some extent. But if I'm not mistaken (and for any Greeks in the know, please mention if this man is politically conservative/revising history) Adonis Georgiades wrote that of all Greek vase paintings discovered, no more than 25 or so contain explicitly homosexual scenes. So, why is this scene depicted - why wouldn't it be? Even if such acts were considered unlawful in certain areas, just as homosexuals in theocracies such as Iran today still engage in sex in privacy, so would have Greeks in less tolerant poleis. That must surely be a given.

From that vase, I don't see anything about a couple or love, though. I think it depicts something more along the lines of prison sex - those men are dominating that submissive man. While this is subjective, it's likely that only the one taking it would be seen as feminine in the eyes of most ancient Greeks. With that as a possibility, wouldn't anal sex be demeaning in pederasty? I figure if the teachings were sexual at all, it would be restricted.
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[size=92:7tw9zbc0]- Bonnie Lawson: proudly Manx.[/size]
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#69
Here we go again Smile
This vase is not the only one of such content and I dare say there are "worse" out there. Bonnie,Adnis Georgiadis is not such a trustworthy source,he's certainly a politically conservative person,and of those "The Greeks built the Pyramids of Egipt" if you understand me. The vases containing homoerotic(lets use this word then) must surely be more than just 25. As Bonnie pointed out this doesn't say much. We still have porn of whatever kind.
Fearing i will become boring expressing my view once more, I think the Greeks were much more free and understanding than us today,Christianity and its morales hadn't influenced them yet. Thus there were homosexuals that didn't feel like hiding their sexual preferences. Plato puts Socrates forgiving the bad judgement of the man in love with a young boy,who's spending the night out of his door singing love songs. He says this is not appropriate behavior,bur his friends forgive him because they know he's in love. And again,speaking about himself,he considers it a big thing that he slept under the same himation with young Alkibiades withoud doing anything. And here is an interesting point. He speaks freely about his passion to have sex with Alkibiades,yet he considers it apropriate to keep himself from doing it. There was conflict from antiquity! Yet,in their conversation,those high class young men in the symposium are agreeing that a man's place is with men,and only manly things should attract him,and that one can love women,too, but they're better just to make family with them. Family and love are separated!
On the other hand, Athenian laws were also clear. Male adults were restricted from having sex. The passive one was punished in the worst way in their society. On the contrary,erotic relationship with young boys was not restricted as long as they boy wanted it. Politics was of cource part of what the boy wanted and what not.
Plato says that pederasty was a Doric custom and that this was one of the resons some old Athenians were against it. So we know there was a similar situation in Dorian cities,Sparta among them. And the Rhetra restricts sex between boys and their lovers. Or at least this is what Xenophon says in his idealised Spartan Institution. But contrary to any other law,this one speaks about something private. With the greeks so open minded in sex and with men spending so much time with their young handsome elite boy lovers,who can deny that some of them-even if not homosexuals in general- had sexual contact with eachother? How can we rewrite history if it was never written? And how can we know what happened in the dark? We have two given factors. Spartan institution allowed each boy to have a LOVER. However it RESTRICTED SEX between those. And yet there was no way to control them. And one last note: Xenophons doesn't say they were restricted to have sex with boys,just that they considered it inapropriate,like having sex with their children. Now lets think about this. We know they became Eirenes at the age of 20 and their lovers would be about 13-15. When the Eiren would become a Spartan Homoios at his 30,his lover would be 23-25... And how can Xenophon speak about the views of every Spartan?
Now go figure!
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
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#70
Quote:Homoerotic is not homosexual, a point that seems lost on so many authors...

...There is a huge difference between saying that there was a homoerotic element to the link between "lovers" and assigning obligate intercourse.

Precisely why the term was used.
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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